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Post by HockeySam18 on Aug 19, 2013 2:25:19 GMT
Yep I think you could get 1000 gold from the farmer, actually. Maybe 10000 was just a typo of his Sabato Returns has a ton of easter eggs. IIRC if you can somehow get back to the island with Fizban's manor, you find an elite berserk. There's also something cool if you kill the guy with the racing pigs, and a ton of other stuff but I forget. A Call to Arms is actually one of my favorite scenarios ever. Seriously, definitely in the top 10 for me. I think I've already told you on AoKH about my playing it on Hard, and it was one of the most fun (and frustrating ) AoK experiences I ever had. It's all about good strategy, and I liked that you were constantly encouraged to do things unconventional by AoK standards, like forcing those paladins into the swamp at the battle for that bridge. ACtA was never buggy so much as that it could go over the heads of a lot of people and that it really tried to push the limits of the editor, which can end up in triggers getting confused like you said. Playtesting is so valuable because other people will play a scenario invariably differently. For example, once I won the opening battle at the beginning of aMa's Saxon Revolt scenario (the one that shipped in the goodies folder of AoK:TC) and realized that I had to delete my men to continue. It reminds me of an old thread I read in my lurking days when Ingo was talking about making TKBM, and that one of his playtesters won the purposely "impossible" battle in the beginning of the 4th mission (siege of Duke Eric's castle) where you had to capture the flag of the enemy camp. It's really quite amazing what issues people can find! Unfortunately, I never was able to complete ACtA, because I somehow bugged my savestate at the part with the siege of the castle in the north of the map. I think I'll have another go soon, as I desperately want to finish it! Definitely agree about the simple scenarios over a behemoth though. It's so risky that a huge map can get out of control and sometimes get fatally bugged for a myriad of reasons. PBP4 comes immediately to mind, though such a project is really tough to keep organized. Re the exploring, I always seem to have the voice of the narrator in the Wallace campaign ringing in my ear, saying: "Remember, keep exploring the map." I figured out the cliff walking trick after playing the ninja scene in Way of the Warrior, where a castle is removed right before that sequence. Then I noticed in some scenarios how villagers walk on cliffs after cutting wood there, and I figured that the same thing goes with siege onagers. I used the trick in the first scenario that I ever uploaded to the AoKH blacksmith, where I meshed it with the gliding trick from the unload effect to simulate somebody throwing themselves off a cliff.
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Matt
Stormwind Member
The Come And Go Man
Monsieur Mercredi
Posts: 1,812
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Post by Matt on Aug 19, 2013 2:57:23 GMT
Ha, it's funny, if you never release anything, eventually someone else does having discovered all your tricks themselves. I assume the champion on the boat is a garrison tag? So garrison him and the boat and he appears on deck? I did that with a huscarl a few years back, forgot to ever show it to anyone. Great minds think alike and all that. Anyway, this looks awesome. Like the campaign I always was trying to make but never had the work ethic to finish. Almost makes me want to design something again... Almost.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Aug 19, 2013 15:37:06 GMT
Thanks very much for that comment! Even knowing a few people like yourself and Stephen Richards enjoyed it makes me feel it was worthwhile. If you got to the castle siege you were virtually at the end anyway - I think there was one more short scene after that. I intended more but it got hopelessly broken.
I remember that old thread too. After reading it I went back to TKBM and tried to win the battle for the flag. I couldn't do it with the standard units, but with the two heroes (when you're supposed to find a different approach) I did succeed.
The cliff trick is clever. Does it stop working on reloading the game?
On garrison tags, I once used them with a garrisonable horse. When you garrisoned an infantry unit he would 'mount' the horse and the cavalier graphic would appear on top, obscuring the riderless horse graphic. It worked better in theory than practice though, as the overlap wasn't perfect so you got a horse with two tails and I think a couple of other small annoyances.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Aug 19, 2013 16:05:24 GMT
When you load the game the cliffs become impassable again. That's why you generally need to hide the area where the scene is to take place and then remove the building right before you have the sequence take place.
Didn't you once say that you wanted ACtA to finish out as a massive B&D?
EDIT: Btw, if you ever want to revisit ACtA, then I'd co-op with you or something.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Aug 19, 2013 17:47:20 GMT
Shame, if the trees way was more permanent than the building way it would have been a great trick. NewIdea claimed the Invisibility Clock method could achieve it permanently, but I never got that to work.
You're right, I wanted it to be a sort of cross between B&D and Risk. You would have very limited ability to construct buildings or harvest resources, and would need to capture towns and villages to acquire income (as well as little side missions like assassinating a general). In the end I used a refined version of the concept in The Princes' Revolt - it's even on a modified version of the same map. So you can see more or less what I had in mind.
The only 'Easter egg' I don't think I ever worked out in SR, was that it was supposedly possible to kill Sabato really early on, before Dantares dies. I've no idea how it can be done.
Thanks for the co-op offer. I still need to finish a Chivalry scenario for Kor, so I expect I'll get AoK up and running again at some point before very long.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Aug 19, 2013 19:54:38 GMT
Ah, I always thought the two maps were somewhat similar. Princes' Revolt was another excellent scenario, with that great siege mechanic due to data editing really bringing home the bacon. I liked the quick training of troops as well- it was like playing Goths except with every unit class The only way I think you can kill Sabato in the beginning is through intense luck and micro. Essentially, you would have to get her to target one of your units and then have that unit lure her around in a circle, while your other troops continuously hack at her. Takes a while but it can be done. What makes it quite difficult is that she is a Scythian Wild Woman, so she is a hero (so she is set to defensive stance) and has low line of sight. That means that if the unit luring her moves too far away from her (and "too far" is only a couple tiles), then she will just target the units hacking at her and insta-kills them due to her excessively high AP. I think it's also possible to save one of the groups of cavaliers in the beginning sequence of SR. Are there any easter eggs in Sabato's Holy Grail? I did all of the quests and challenges without seeking help, even killing all the people in the plagued town without being seen. Also found all of the Monty Python cast members. God I wish BJ would come back and make Sabato Lives.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Aug 19, 2013 21:38:53 GMT
I tried that micro, but gave up, although I can see how it's theoretically possible (slow speed, F3, frequent saving and a lot of time). I didn't think that could possibly be the answer, but I couldn't find any other way.
I don't think there are any Easter eggs in Holy Grail. I opened it in Campaign Manager to have a look at how some things were done and didn't notice anything hidden at the time.
It seems we have very similar tastes in gameplay then. Most of my favourite scenarios have intense action, preferably in some creative way, that needs strategic thinking to come through successfully (with Princes' Revolt I tried to make it so that two of the three main enemy towns had key weaknesses to exploit, and then you can just overwhelm the last one). You mentioned Way of the Warrior, which is definitely right up there for this style of gameplay. Take, for example, defending the castle just before the Shinobi part. Constantly I thought I was just getting on top of things when suddenly a stream of garrisoned rams would rush towards the back entrance and I'd have to scramble to deal with it. That sort of thing is so much better than a battle where you stick your troops on a hill with archers in the middle and slowly win, or where you chip away at a fortified base while your own fortifications easily handle feeble counter attacks.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Aug 20, 2013 2:43:29 GMT
Good catch on the gameplay preference- that's exactly the style I like! I love FF in particular because it requires you to be frugal with your troops and think strategically. When you get missions like in Way of the Warrior when you have to take out the 3 enemy bases (blacksmith, farms, mines) and you only have about a dozen men to do it, that takes real strategy. And the DtS portion you mentioned- I love stuff like that too. The Last Bastion is another good example of that sort of gameplay. I first played the German version and had to translate the objectives, etc to work my way through it. By the time I was done, I was so impressed that I taught myself some basic German to be able to translate the entirety of it for upload on AoKH. There's no secret to why I like aMa's stuff so much as well- Take Chrombasia, for example. The first part, with attacking the port, is a fast-paced fight where you're running around with your men trying to neutralize several enemy defense positions. Then comes the RPG part where you have to deal with all those Jarag Guards (Aztec monks and samurai that spawn by the stones), while doing several sidequests. The choices you make early on affect you much later. For example, liberating the Dwarven town will guarantee you enough resources to be able to repell the first few huge attacks later on in the B&D, and rescuing the Dwarf smith during that trek through the hellish landscape will allow you to build siege later on to take down the enemy base. The area with the relic is great too, where you can choose either to run past the Jarags or take out their positions, and doing the sidequest for the hermit who turns out to be a traitor. In the B&D, you have inferior troops and numbers, and have to rely on good strategy for success. For the forward enemy base, you have 2 choices- fight a bloody battle or create a diversion so that you can sneak in and take over the towers to convert the base. The main enemy base is a bit of a slog, but you keep getting reinforcements of strong troops that you have to use wisely, and the key is to hit the enemy base from all sides- including by transport ship in their harbor. Attacking from one front will get you slaughtered by samurai, but several attacks will allow you to get rams through to take out the enemy castles. On the other hand, there were lots of points in that scenario where you fought incredibly bloody battles to achieve miniscule but important gains, but it all required enough strategy that it was enjoyable. Archers sitting on a hill would get onagered EDIT: Speaking of aMa, he has another campaign in the works atm. It is a remake of one he created in 2002, and he is halfway done. I've been in contact and working with him to translate it as well- he creates the scenario and I do the translation. The gameplay is exemplary, and the story is also quite good. He's really pushing the editor to the limit while still maintaining his trademark simple and straightforward style. I'm hoping that he can finish the final half soon!
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Aug 20, 2013 4:36:08 GMT
Ah, I look forward to that.
I never finished Chrombasia actually, although I can't really remember why not (I think it was the RPG part that didn't do much for me). The harbour battle was good, but the whole thing was a lot less polished in my recollection than Way of the Warrior for example.
Last Bastion was good, as you say, but as we discussed previously those Saboteurs are just a right pain. They ruin your defences and your army instantaneously unless you know what's coming and micromanage and get a bit lucky, which really undermines the fun of coping with being under pressure and facing surprises.
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Post by Basse on Aug 20, 2013 10:39:06 GMT
I can see your point. I know I have at least one of your big, unfinished projects on my harddrive from back when we sent around various half-done scenarios; Izami the Samurai I believe it's called. I've had the same problem for a very long time too, really. I used to have 3-4 projects going at the same time, and only one or two of them would ever get done, leaving me with a host of half-done projects. At one point I think I had six projects going t the same time! Some of them I would later return to and finish (e.g. Caught in the Crossfire and Gwyndlegard, which I didn't touch for about 8 months at one point), while others remain to this day unfinished (you may perhaps recall Tales from Morenton with the unusually immature 18-year-old prince? ) For me the problem has mostly been that I couldn't force myself to focus on one thing at a time, I always had a bunch of ideas that I wanted to do, all at the same time. That's why most of my finished projects consist of minigames and simple DTS scenarios. At the same time I always considered those scenarios less important side projects to the big projects that never got finished... because I spent so much time and effort on less important side projects. It wasn't until 2010, when I finished both Gwyndlegard and Marvin & Rob in a relatively short amount of time, that I managed to focus on one project at a time and work really hard on it. As my reward for not constantly straying from the goal, I got a slight burnout from the game and didn't open it up for months. @matt, Yep, it's a garrison tag! I thought it would be pretty cool to have the main hero sail around on a boat in the boss battle, avoidong fire and landing on little islands to attack. That never materialized though (I now use your rock mirrors for this part of the boss fight instead!), and this lil' boat has been confined to a side quest in scenario 6. Still, it's a pretty cool trick! And you should definitely get back to scenario designing. You could finish this scenario, for starters! I'll have to try out the garrisoning horse though, Julius. Perhaps if you were to shift the anchor point of the Cavalier graphics slightly down, it would look better?
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Aug 20, 2013 17:17:53 GMT
I think the problem with the graphics is that they would have to match exactly on every frame, and the horse and cavalier graphics just don't. If, for example, the tails ain't in perfect sync you will get times when two tails are visible. I've also just remembered the more crippling problem, which is that the cavalier garrison graphic doesn't canter when the unit is moving, so you get the glide effect. It was a decent idea, but I'm pretty sure it's a dead end.
Another decent idea that didn't go anywhere was cavalry that can kill units just by charging into them (allowing you to cut your way through a group of infantry, for example). I thought it could be done by garrisoning a petard inside the cavalry and then killing the petard with a trigger. This does cause area damage, but unfortunately it's limited to the cavalry unit's initial location (ie AoK doesn't recognise that the petard has moved when the unit it is in has moved). Maybe you can make something of it. Possibly that problem wouldn't apply with a transport ship? Could use it as a ramming vessel.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Aug 21, 2013 3:08:35 GMT
Ah, I look forward to that. I never finished Chrombasia actually, although I can't really remember why not (I think it was the RPG part that didn't do much for me). The harbour battle was good, but the whole thing was a lot less polished in my recollection than Way of the Warrior for example. Last Bastion was good, as you say, but as we discussed previously those Saboteurs are just a right pain. They ruin your defences and your army instantaneously unless you know what's coming and micromanage and get a bit lucky, which really undermines the fun of coping with being under pressure and facing surprises. Chrombasia was unusually hard, I thought. There are some points where you're ready to punch something ;D Actually, the ending to Chrombasia is broken. You finish the final part and the credits roll, but the ending cutscene doesn't trigger and you have to "i r winner" it. Unfortunately, this sets up zero pretext for the entirety of the victory slide after the scenario, and thus the scene that plays out is somewhat diminished. Aside from that, I wish there was more context to the story. The intro slides talk about a mythological event happening on the island and then the arrival of the Jarag guards and their takeover of the island. Chrombasia literally begins in medias res- the opening cutscene takes place in the ruins of this massive Jarag castle that the Templars (?!?) and their mercenary companions had just besieged and taken. Not only would that be a pretty cool scenario, but it would provide a much-needed introduction to Chrombasia itself. Then, the ending of Chrombasia makes it clear that the story is not over, as the other relic is not in the south of the map as Merano thought, and sets up (and iirc blatantly stating) that there will be a Chrombasia 2, as little has been resolved through the events of Chrombasia itself. Ah well. Time to have a chat with aMa Agreed with the point about the Sabs in Last Bastion. Normally, I wouldn't edit somebody else's work that I translated, but seeing as the numerous patrol effects on the sabs now crash the game when running UserPatch, I might just go through, delete them, and delete the triggers affecting them as well, killing 2 birds with one stone. I'm pretty sure that the only reason they're there is because Emperor couldn't get the AI to attack that side of the city otherwise. @basse: I know what you're talking about with getting burned out of design for a little while. I'm currently nearing one of those points myself.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Aug 21, 2013 20:04:33 GMT
Yeah, if the gate needs to be demolished there are better ways to achieve that.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Aug 22, 2013 2:45:37 GMT
Come to think of it, the sabs are eventually patrolled to the far north of Vienna, another area which the AI can't seem to attack despite having a huge camp there. I'm seeing a pattern here... they will be removed. Btw, speaking of Way of the Warrior- did you ever consider it odd that during the defense of the mountain fortress, that the blue player attacked the green buildings in the fortress but was allied to you? I found it a bit of a letdown that you could just sit an onager in the east of the fort and kill them all as they came, and they did nothing about you attacking them? Kinda reminds me of Scythians vs Persians in Attila 1 But I suppose it would be impossible to balance then, with two huge enemy armies attacking you instead of one...
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Aug 22, 2013 13:39:22 GMT
Huh, I actually don't remember noticing that.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Aug 23, 2013 3:59:25 GMT
Thinking about all of these scenarios makes me remember how many designers promised sequels/future installments and unfortunately were never able to deliver. Way of the Warrior, Sabato, Chrombasia, Halfdan... the list goes on and on. A shame too, since these were some of the best stories I have seen in AoK Basse, I know it's a bit forward to ask, but have you had any thoughts for future installments to the story of the Gwyndlegard universe? After RoA, of course.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Aug 23, 2013 5:07:08 GMT
The same goes for a fair number of SWS members: myself, Sebastien, Matty, Mashek, Basse and VonCorgath all qualify at least, if you include unfulfilled prologues.
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Post by Basse on Aug 23, 2013 8:40:16 GMT
RoA will be the end of the trilogy, but I have ideas for another campaign set in the Gwyndlegard universe, this time with Immanuel's grand-son as the main protagonist. I don't think I'll have the time to actually make it, though.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Aug 23, 2013 19:53:48 GMT
Well I hope you do But one thing is for certain: you're going to deserve a nice break after this masterpiece is completed
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Post by Basse on Aug 23, 2013 21:54:14 GMT
Haha, thanks! I actually hav 2-3 scenarios/campaigns that I would like to do - the one with Immanuel's grand-son, a remake of my ancient scenario "Kerokato", and a remake of an old, unreleased campaign called "Tales from Morenton" - but this fall I will have to concentrate on my studies, as well as my film projects and getting my driver's licence at long last! All that, and I have a novel I want to write. So I doubt I'll have much time left for AoK. But who knows, I might spend a month or two next summer on a scenario, like I did with The Rockspring Revolution. I want to focus on the most important things first, though!
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Post by HockeySam18 on Aug 24, 2013 22:10:37 GMT
Definitely man. Good luck with everything in RL, especially the driver's licence! It opens up so many possibilities... Actually, with all of the stuff I have coming up this fall (school and hockey of course but also college applications and choosing a university, among other things), I may not have much time for AoK until the spring. A shame, too, since I was hoping to have Lepanto out before the end of 2013, but I may have to surrender the GotY award to you this year without a fight (jk, you'd blow me out of the water in that competition)
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Matt
Stormwind Member
The Come And Go Man
Monsieur Mercredi
Posts: 1,812
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Post by Matt on Sept 2, 2013 0:38:10 GMT
The same goes for a fair number of SWS members: myself, Sebastien, Matty, Mashek, Basse and VonCorgath all qualify at least, if you include unfulfilled prologues. It would be fun to see how much has ever actually been done on any of these projects. I know I had maybe 15% of The Quiet Dawn Part 2 done.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Sept 2, 2013 1:05:55 GMT
Basse, I found the cameo for Plarffbert Urr'iwranggg in RoA, btw
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Post by Basse on Sept 2, 2013 8:44:01 GMT
Haha, great. Probably not much at all. Almost all of the projects where I created a prologue never get anywhere further than the prologue, except A Dream of Conquest where I had a whole 8-10 scenarios done before giving it up. It would be very interesting to see some of these abandoned projects, though, Mashek's "A Path to War" for example. *hint, hint*
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Post by Basse on Sept 12, 2013 19:53:05 GMT
Julius, would you like to give RoA a playthrough? I could use your opinions particularily on the story, seeing as my other playtesters appear to be somewhat divided over it. You don't have to write down any bug reports unless you have a lot of time on your hands, just some general comments on the story and the ending would be greatly appreciated.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Sept 13, 2013 3:13:25 GMT
Happy to. I'm on holiday from later today until the 16th, but if you send it my way I'll get back to you when I can.
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Post by Basse on Sept 13, 2013 6:43:19 GMT
Great. I'll send you an email with the download link!
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Sept 17, 2013 9:59:22 GMT
I'll be checking this out today.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Sept 17, 2013 17:45:37 GMT
Wow, this is hard. I'm barely into the first playable scenario and I'm really struggling. That first assault really packs a punch, and there's not much let up afterwards. I might drop down to moderate for the sake of getting through the story.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Sept 18, 2013 16:34:17 GMT
@julius: The B&D scenarios on Hard are a grind to say the least Just wait until you see the 4th scenario @basse: Extreme challenge on Hard is good though, don't change it too much!
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