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Post by HockeySam18 on Dec 22, 2015 15:21:40 GMT
Has everybody seen the new Star Wars film yet? If not, I'll refrain from any discussion until you all have (if you plan on doing so).
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 22, 2015 20:59:23 GMT
I haven't, and probably will some day - but I'll just leave this thread alone. I've actually only seen The Phantom Menace out of the Star Wars films.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Dec 22, 2015 22:52:07 GMT
The Phantom Menace is generally regarded as the worst of the Star Wars films, so in the case that it left you disenchanted I'd recommend watching the original trilogy (IV: A New Hope, V: The Empire Strikes Back, and VI: Return of the Jedi). The prequels (I, II, and III) in general were pretty lackluster aside from excellent usage of CGI/special effects and some outstanding individual acting performances, though I think that Revenge of the Sith was an immense improvement over The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. I hadn't watched any of the films in the past 5 years or so, but in preparation for the new film I recently binge watched the first 6 films. I'd go as far as to say that the new film is the best one yet, but that's all I'll say until I know whether or not Matt or Basse have seen it
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Matt
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Post by Matt on Dec 23, 2015 7:23:20 GMT
I see it Saturday. I'm crazy excited. Until then I'm not discussing it.
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Post by Basse on Dec 23, 2015 15:36:24 GMT
I saw it on the premiere about a week ago, and I thought it was really good. A little too heavy on the fan service elements, and the main villain was kind of weak (the actor at least), but apart from that I really enjoyed it. The parallells to the first film were pretty blatant though.
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Matt
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Post by Matt on Dec 27, 2015 3:09:52 GMT
Saw this today. It's fantastic. I had a couple issues for sure, but much of it was brilliant. The original trilogy was full of wonder and intrigue, and left you with all these questions you wanted answered. The prequels basically were about answering all those questions, but the answers they gave sucked and they ended up answering questions no one ever needed answered, all while generating no new questions or intrigue of their own. This film left me with a dozen or more questions I am really hoping get answered in the next film, so I feel that's probably the best sign that the franchise has returned to form.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Dec 27, 2015 5:12:16 GMT
I noticed that as well, though I didn't mind way too much because it also built off the elements that made the original trilogy so successful and I thought most of the actors were excellent. The actor playing Kylo seemed a bit disoriented at times, but in his defense they didn't really put much effort into developing his character properly and giving it much consistency. I'm curious as to what they'll do in the next two films. Pretty much this. You could tell that the plotline of the originals was carefully crafted and well-thought-out, and the performances of the actors fit in well with this. In contrast, the plotline of the prequels seemed rushed and there were far too many inconsistencies. I mean, compare Luke to Anakin, for example. You know the whole time that Luke is special etc, but he has to embrace a whole different set of concepts than he was used to and struggles with adversity along the way, which makes him seem human and thus relatable. Anakin, on the other hand, basically has everything handed to him from the start - he just happens to be good at everything because reasons and still spends 90% of his screen time making creepy advances on Padme or whining about how awful his life is despite him clearly being better off than nearly everybody else. The other thing that annoyed me about the prequels (aside from the plethora of boring scenes regarding politics) was the way the Jedi were handled. They're supposed to be wise and perceptive and all but they just sit there clueless as Palpatine takes over. They're at least top-notch fighters, but 95% of the fighting consists of slashing through mindless grunts with a few lightsaber duels thrown in. It's like playing one of those bad RPG scenarios in AoK with no depth to the story where you hack through 500 bandits/wolves and then have a boss battle every so often where you abuse elevation to win Anyway, I'm glad that the new film managed to get back to what made the originals so good and focused on the things that matter. I'm quite curious to see where they go with the numerous aspects of the plot that are as of yet mysterious, especially with regard to the characters of Rey, Snoke (Andy Serkis!), Finn, and Kylo. The love plot of this film is a vast improvement over the disastrous Anakin-Padme one, which is quite a relief. Also, the absence of Jar Jar Binks is a huge plus
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Matt
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Post by Matt on Dec 29, 2015 23:07:43 GMT
I actually loved Kylo Ren in this new film. He kind of looked like Anakin, which was interesting. And I thought he did a good job of mixing the emotional instability of Anakin with the ruthless villainy of Vader. It was the performance the prequels needed but didn't have really, except for some scenes in Revenge of the Sith. I thought the two weak points of the film were how little new it created (it focused on nostalgia at the expense of innovation. Even Ren's ship is incredibly reminiscent of Vader's), and how little of the philosophy and deeper themes of star wars were there to be had. There wasn't one scene where the force was discussed in theoretical terms, it was just a thing for jedi to use. Even the prequels did better in this area. I do expect the next film to be heavy on that stuff as the Empire strikes back was, and with Rey and Luke meeting resembling Luke and Yoda. Haha. That's actually pretty accurate. I never got why obi wan could take out Maul will hanging in a pipe below him, but Anakin couldn't use the force to make up for the two foot difference.
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Post by Matt on Dec 29, 2015 23:14:51 GMT
Also, Mark Hamill is such a fantastic actor. The odd thing I see him in he always is great in. His voice acting work is tremendous.
And he only had one scene but it stole the film in my opinion. He didn't even need a line to make me understand exactly why he wasn't around to help all film. Best scene in the movie for me.
It did take me a couple minutes to figure out the light saber thing though. This is actually Anakin's light saber, passed on to Luke and lost in Empire strikes back. The blue one. The green one was made by Luke before Return of the Jedi and presumably he still has it or he buried it away somewhere. But the blue one would have real meaning to both Luke and Kylo Ren.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Dec 30, 2015 2:09:03 GMT
Maul's death is the worst ever. He literally sits there like an idiot for 5 seconds while watching Obi Wan jump up, use the force to grab Qui-Gon's lightsaber, and cut him in half at the waist This was actually another major problem with the prequels - when they wanted to make someone look competent, they didn't actually do it by having him/her perform well, but rather by making their opponent(s) perform as awfully as possible. Remember the scene where the Jedi go to arrest Palpatine and Mace Windu's three companions get killed off in the first 5 seconds of the encounter in the most idiotic ways possible? Interestingly enough, that scene was filmed at Skellig Michael, the site of an early medieval Irish monastery. The scenery is gorgeous. Yeah...it's beginning to remind me a bit of the Narsil/Anduril sword in Lord of the Rings
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Matt
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Post by Matt on Jan 3, 2016 6:41:29 GMT
I went back and watched a New Hope again, and one of the things that really stood out was how competent Vader was. He captures Leia, kills obi wan, let's the good guys 'escape' so he can track them to the rebel base, and in the final battle single handedly kills almost all the fighter pilots from his fighter. He loses because of two things outside his control, Han changing his mind and coming out of hyperspace to rescue luke, and Luke using the force to make the shot. Even then, he had warned the command that their technological achievement was no match for someone with the force. He really doesn't make a mistake all movie, he just loses to exceptional heroics.
As opposed to every single jedi master in Revenge of the Sith, who get taken out in a 30 second montage by their own inept clones. Or Maul. Or the masters with Windu. Hell, an entire army of jedi lose to dooku's minions in Clones just so that yoda and the clone army can save them. A clone army of mysteeeeerious origin that the jedi just accept without wondering why. The mind boggles at the incompetence.
Even Yoda and Obiwan...like, they are the last two jedi available, but also the strongest two. Why not team up and take out the emperor? No they split up and accomplish nothing. And even then, they do manage to cripple Anakin and weaken him, why just give up? Why not go round two against the emperor when Anakin is on the sidelines?
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Matt
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Post by Matt on Jan 3, 2016 6:45:45 GMT
Honestly the best part of the prequels is RedLetterMedia's reviews of them. I should say, I think Revenge of the Sith is a pretty decent movie. The previous two put it in such an awful starting position, and it had to somehow shoehorn everything into a new hope, so it was pretty doomed. Despite that there are a lot of decent scenes and Anakin has less ridiculous lines in it. Also very little Jar Jar. Mostly, it's a really average movie with some awesome stuff and some equally ridiculous stuff. The first two are drivel though.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Jan 3, 2016 15:36:32 GMT
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 11, 2017 0:02:52 GMT
So! I watched this film yesterday. I have still yet to see Rogue One or episodes 2-6, but I will get round to them eventually.
I thought it was pretty decent, but not great.
Some things I liked:
1. The action scenes. These were all well done. 2. Most of the characters, but especially Han Solo, the young dark-haired villain who is Han Solo's son, and the two human protagonists. 3. The joke where the bright gold robot acknowledges that you might not recognise him because of his new red arm.
Some things I didn't like so much:
4. The scrolling text at the start. What happened to 'show, don't tell' in a visual medium? 5. The scrolling text did not even assist much with orientating myself with the background to the plot. We are told that the First Order is the 'remnants' of an empire, but they rove around with loads of warships, invade Jacoo with impunity, and can build a super-weapon the size of a planet. I wasn't sure whether they were supposed to be a super-power or a sort of North Korea. I also wasn't sure why the only apparent opposition to the First Order was a couple of hundred people with maybe a dozen fighters. (There was mention of a Republic Fleet, but if the whole thing was wiped out in a single attack then it can't have been up to much.) 6. The Republic might as well not have been in the film. They got about 30 seconds of screen-time while a city was being blown up and that was it. 7. The First Order was unbelievably careless. There are thousands of soldiers at the parade ground scene, but then they only assign a single guy to guarding the high-value prisoner. All it takes to disable the obviously crucial shields is to get the jump on a single person who is wandering around with no escort. 8. The Republic and the Resistance are rather negligent too. How did they not detect the construction of a planet-sized weapon (code-named "the Weapon") that needs to devour a star to charge up? I suppose it could be hidden, but then when the Resistance is made aware of it they can immediately do a detailed reconnaissance without apparent trouble.
That's more negative things than positive things, but I wouldn't say that reflects my overall enjoyment. It is an action-heavy film, not a plot-heavy one.
He looked washed-up to me.
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Post by Mashek on Dec 19, 2017 13:08:16 GMT
There's certainly a lot of issues with Force Awakens, and even more so with the latest release the Last Jedi. I found the latter to be almost childish, lazily written and plot points that consistently led no where. The main problem I have with the new films (barring Rogue One which actually begins before the original film Episode IV ~ A New Hope) is that they are all just rehashes of the original films and simply do nothing to explore new grounds (e.g. the continuous appearance of a death star capable of destroying planets). These films have all the money behind them and yet they still fail catastrophically in a film's most fundamental piece - story writing. The Star Wars universe should contain tonnes of exciting material, but it's like the writers just want to keep reliving the same plot over and over again. Rogue One does a much better job of not only being a Star Wars film but an entertaining one at that. It still has issues and its characters are threadbare, but it is well shot and the action sequences are excellent. It also touches on some new ground and looks better for it. The set pieces are really well done. This is a tradition used through all of the original films. They all use the same opening crawl to set the stage. I guess the First Order inherited the Empire's armies from the original, like a new political force - but it still leaves a lot unanswered. The Empire in the original films basically rule all of the universe and are led by the Sith who use the dark side of the force. How the First Order constructed that super weapon from nothing is beyond me, and how they failed to learn from the Empire's two disastrous defeats in utilising said weapons is also beyond me. I agree that this was poor - they were a major player in some of the original films, but to be thrown away almost carelessly didn't do the story justice at all. A good example of bad writing where dumb things like this happen in order to progress the plot. You're not supposed to think this deeply, Julius.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Dec 20, 2017 5:46:31 GMT
I saw The Last Jedi earlier tonight, and like you, I am disappointed at the general lack of willingness to innovate. Similarly to VII, this one was essentially a patchwork of scenes and plotlines from the original films (mostly V and VI, this time) and didn't really bring anything new to the table. The fact that I managed to enjoy it nevertheless is a testament to the excellent cinematography and the performances of certain actors, but in terms of plot structure it remains an egregious case of self-plagiarism.
I noticed a similar trend with the way the Hobbit films mirrored LotR. In each series, the first film was the one where they venture through the wilderness while being pursued, the second was the mix of wandering and action scenes after the company splits, and the third was the one where everyone comes back together for a set of epic battle scenes. It's true that some of that is owed to general similarities in plot structure, but it was mostly excessive pandering to nostalgia in an attempt to rest on the laurels of the franchise's initial success.
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Post by Mashek on Dec 22, 2017 12:57:20 GMT
WARNING: Do not read if you have yet to see the Last Jedi! The main issues I had with Last Jedi was that its story had barely any continuation from Force Awakens. The way it actually destroyed potential interest and development in plot reminds me of Piece by Piece at the Blacksmith. Square 1 would set up a story and raise interesting points, while a designer several squares down manages to undo all of it by killing off a character suddenly or taking an entirely unexpected direction. The point here is Snoke being some bad arse villain suddenly dies and there were no questions as to his origin, while Rey's parents were suddenly flicked off as being trash who sold her (unless Kylo Ren is lying). Two areas the first film raised great questions on and suddenly did a 360 turn and botched it. Other cons: ~ Too much of a Disney movie catered to the general audience. ~ The entire movie plot was one of ships miraculously running out of fuel and trying to break away from the First Order battleships. From start to finish the film barely progresses on this front. ~ Luke was badly written. ~ Didn't progress much on Rey's front, wasn't convinced by her training under Luke. It was cool but didn't do much justice to learning about the Jedi, which is what it set out to do. It became more a potential love story between Rey and Kylo Ren. ~ Casino scene was pointless, they head there to get some guy, but came back with someone else. Spent too much time here for little plot at all; it was really just an excuse to fill in some time and show a new set piece. ~ BS love relationship between Finn and that girl. ~ Animal lives matter: Finn and the girl rescue the horse-like creatures felt forced and like Disney's trying to make a point ~ Mutiny on the ship against admiral led absolutely no where. ~ That admiral character was cringe worthy. ~ They killed off fan favourite Admiral Ackbar with a single line "he died". ~ Forced comedy throughout the film. ~ End battle all just show; massive walkers but didn't even really use them. What on earth were they trying to do with those crappy speeders across the salt plain? They all turned back in the end anyway. ~ That girl somehow beating Finn and saving him from sacrificing himself. I nearly jumped out of my seat to shout "WTF?". ~ Somehow after speeding across that landscape Finn manages to drag that girl back to the doorway several kilometres away before the First Order even get there. ~ Luke at the end: wtf were they thinking?! ~ A lot of those shitty soap opera moments where the character is trying to do something and then nearly gets there before something wrong happens - felt forced and uninteresting: e.g. start of the film when the girl drops the remote to release the bombs over the First Order battle ship. Pros: ~ Was entertaining in parts and still fun to watch, but the disappointment remains. ~ Liked the developed plot for Kylo Ren - only character who felt like they gave real points to grow.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 23, 2017 0:22:59 GMT
I shall respond in three years or so.
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Post by Mashek on Dec 24, 2017 23:35:50 GMT
I watched Rogue One for the second time last night, and it is still brilliantly entertaining. It really picks up when the Rebel force infiltrate Scarif. I love how what is otherwise just a small incursion into an Imperial base suddenly draws in the attention of other factions of the Rebel Alliance, turning the battle into a fully-fledged war zone. It is thrilling and inspiring.
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Matt
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Post by Matt on Jan 24, 2018 13:44:49 GMT
I assume we have all seen The Last Jedi by now? In general with movies, I refrain from being critical of creative stories. Writers are creators, and I'd rather watch the movie they wanted to write than the movie I would write, if that makes sense. I enjoy feeling like I was told an original story, even if it wasn't told exactly how I would tell it. One reason I feel Rogue One is easily the worst star wars film ever is it tells me no story at all. A basic story needs to have a beginning, conflict of some kind, and ending, and Rogue One has none of those. Instead it assumes you know the start of the story from another movie, the ending from the same movie, and removes all conflict because you know from A New Hope they succeed and all die. But I digress... So...The Last Jedi. I think it is brilliant. It told a star wars story we haven't seen before. It might not be the direction most viewers wanted the story to go, but that's okay. Disney was determined to shoehorn in an Asian actress, so we got a character introduced in this film who there frankly wasn't room for, and that whole side plot is a mess. But a bad side plot still is good enough in Star Wars to rank high... My Star Wars Rankings: 1. Empire Strikes Back 2. A new Hope 3. The Last Jedi 4. Return of the Jedi 5. Revenge of the Sith 6. The Force Awakens 7. Attack of the Clones 8. Phantom Menace 9. Rogue One
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Post by HockeySam18 on Dec 22, 2019 5:37:21 GMT
I definitely missed the above post until now. You make some good points about Last Jedi and Rogue One. As standalone films the spin-offs suffer from all of the flaws that you mention, but I guess that with such a storied franchise only a fraction of viewers will have seen the spinoffs before the main films so the damage is less than it would have otherwise been. Having watched Last Jedi again recently, I'll take your point about telling a unique story--but they could have done that just as effectively in an hour instead of 2.5 hours if they cut the fluff and the stupid side plot, and used the extra time to advance the core plot instead. I've become somewhat less critical of the direct parallels between several films after learning some time ago that Lucas created Star Wars after reading Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" and deliberately decided to recreate the cyclical "hero's journey" in his series. I just saw Episode IX in theaters. Also, I've been streaming The Mandalorian. If anyone else has seen either of them yet, let's chat
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Post by Basse on Dec 23, 2019 12:37:41 GMT
I watched Episode IX on the premiere on the 18th. I have never been a huge Star Wars fan, but I have seen all the movies except the Han Solo standalone and enjoyed them. I enjoyed Force Awakens quite a lot, Last Jedi I found entertaining but a bit on the nose with some of the political stuff. Rise of Skywalker was much more of a mixed bag for me. Some things really made me roll my eyes, like everyone surviving that huge blast of electricity at the end, and the Emperor just appearing out of nowhere with a fleet of a thousand starships, which would have taken a ginormous amount of resources to make. The first five minutes should have been half a movie, honestly. And I can't help but feel that it would have been exactly that, had J.J. Abrams directed the second film as well.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Dec 23, 2019 14:02:23 GMT
Yeah, I had a similar feeling. Abrams was in a tough spot after VIII didn't advance the plot at all aside from the Rey/Ren dynamic, so IX felt really rushed considering that it had to a) make up for that lost time; b) undo the damage that VIII did plot-wise (for example telling the audience that Rey's background is unimportant despite so much of VII leading up to that), and c) conclude the saga in satisfying fashion. All that considered, I found it pretty solid, and certainly a huge bounce back from VIII.
If I had to pinpoint an issue, it's how ridiculous the Force abilities are getting. Since when are people able to pull ships back from flying away, or have virtual battles with each other? Being able to force-lightning an entire fleet is likewise absurd, even for the dark lord of the Sith.
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Post by Basse on Dec 23, 2019 15:59:02 GMT
Yeah, it definitely feels like it was added purely for the coolness factor, with little to no regard for the story's internal cohesion. I was also a bit bothered by the constant jokes, much more so in this one than in the previous films. Mostly because they were often so meta, as jokes about the story and the universe rather than jokes in the story and the universe. It felt very Marvel-y, and while I think it mostly works in the Marvel movies (because I never took the stories and characters there seriously), here it just hampers what is otherwise a pretty serious, epic plot.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Dec 23, 2019 19:22:33 GMT
Harrison Ford's dry jokes in the original films remain funnier than anything else written into the series since You touch on another good point as well--ever since the prequels, the series has suffered from a cancerous case of special effect creep, often at the expense of other integral things.
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Post by Basse on Dec 23, 2019 20:22:27 GMT
True. I don't think the effects themselves are much of an issue, they often do bring the world and the action to life. But oftentimes it just feels hollow, it's all just flash with little substance. There are definitely worse offenders than these films, but it is unfortunate that they allow it to damage what is, at its core, a really cool world and story.
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Post by HockeySam18 on Dec 23, 2019 20:30:02 GMT
Agreed entirely. The Hobbit trilogy is probably a good example of a worse offender
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Post by Basse on Dec 23, 2019 20:36:47 GMT
Definitely. They really should have kept that as a single film. Two, tops. But even then they would be stretching it. What they actually made is kind of ridiculous. I was going to say that the Marvel movies belong in this category too, but I am not entirely sure I believe that. They definitely do the same thing, but, to me at least, in that series the almost cartoon-like characters, the broad epics with little depth and abundance of effects... all of that is the substance, what you come to watch. So it works, even though they, as movies and stories, do not hold a candle to pretty much any well-told tale in film.
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Matt
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Post by Matt on Dec 27, 2019 22:13:52 GMT
Saw it today, what a mess. I understand TLJ made this movie difficult to pull off as it derailed a lot of Abrams ideas, but A) just go with it, it was a more interesting movie anyway, and B) don't go introducing Palpatine again if you're strapped for time to right the ship.
Ultimately, no one has any character arcs except Kylo Ren.
Po goes from freedom fighter pilot to...pilot.
Finn goes from reformed stormtrooper to...nothing. his entire point in the first movie was to be the Jedi fakeout for Rey. The next two movies they just moved him around planets because he was pointless.
I can't even begin to figure out what Rose was supposed to do in this movie. I can only assume the African American girl is being setup for a TV show? They spent a lot of time trying to make here seem cool but gave no info on her.
Rey bounces around between multiple stories, sometimes going dark (but never really), sometimes learning to be a Jedi (but never showing any progress except being overpowered), sometimes being a leader (but usually just being selfish).
How did Palpatibe ressurrect himself? How did he build such a huge fleet out of nothing? Why does the first order become palpatines army for no reason? If so many freedom fighting ships exist, why haven't they just wiped out the pathetic first order in half a day? Why does Rey go into hiding at the end? If Palpatibe cloned snoke, why doesn't he clone more sith? If he had a kid why was he so obsessed with Anakin?
So many ridiculous questions.
Anyway, from a general standpoint, I almost fell asleep twice in the first half, which was soooo slow. The second half was just a giant bunch of explosions.
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Matt
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Post by Matt on Dec 27, 2019 22:14:24 GMT
On a positive side, the first five episodes of the Mandalorian are really fun!
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