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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Sept 18, 2013 17:42:38 GMT
I agree with keeping Hard brutal, but for now I'm playing to get the story and comment on it, so I've dropped down to Standard. I'm now up to the fight with Tengil.
The campaign is very good so far, as I'm sure you know. It's got rough edges still, especially later on (the Kalpireia scenario is buggy, especially in the night time bit), but still good work. Some of those graphics I will never love, but others such as the lighthouses on Yellow town island are very nice.
The difficulty setting for standard is still far from ideal. Parts of it are fine, but others are way too difficult for the cakewalk experience. Trekking through the caves is enormously frustrating when you're coming to the scenario for the first time. The 'gate' is far too well hidden, and should be made much clearer - no one wants to have solved the puzzle and burn through four torches and then die just looking around for the exit. Also bear in mind that with all the dead ends the player is bound to spend time backtracking, so factor that into the time you allow. Also annoying is how fast the torches burn out, as they really give you very little respite.
I also don't like the fireball scene with Tengil. I literally have no idea what to do. I can't dodge because Immanuel is stuck in place and I don't see anything else to try. There are no hints or instructions about how the fight is supposed to work. What should I be doing?
So far story is good (actually, extremely good), but I guess I haven't got to the controversial part yet. I'll give my comments when I'm at the end.
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Post by Basse on Sept 18, 2013 17:56:23 GMT
I still have a lot of work to do on it, both balancing and ironing out bugs. I'll wait for your final comments and Devestator's full report before starting working on it again, though, mainly because I have almost no time for AoK at the moment. I've written a few of the various books during breaks in lectures at uni, though. To win the fireball fight, you have to send the fireballs back at him. You do so by targetting him when the fireball comes near you. This works most smoothly on Slow speed I'm told. I am going to add clear hints to this part, and the whole of the boss fight for that matter, in the updated version.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Sept 18, 2013 18:09:36 GMT
I have to say, although it's not yet the finished article, the whole campaign is very fun. There's so much to explore and always plenty of enemies to crush. I like how in the B&Ds even on standard there isn't a disappointing lack of enemies to fight, even if they lack the ruthless conviction to trash your base without mercy. It's no fun killing a pitiful handful of guys, and it's good that you manage to make, for example, the defence of Yellow Island easy rather than boring (I carelessly lost my entire navy and both beaches almost straightaway, but was still never really close to losing - I don't see how you can lose on standard unless you forget to spam troops). Edit: got past Tengil and on to the next scenario. The mechanic worked well, and instructions are all that are needed. Kind of unsure why you didn't include them for your play testers though.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Sept 18, 2013 19:12:13 GMT
Next confusing obstacle: I have a key but am trapped behind rocks and nothing is happening. I only have control of Immanuel and my other heroes are standing around like lemons.
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Post by Basse on Sept 18, 2013 19:17:30 GMT
You should be attacked by an unrelenting loop of demons at this point. Restart and next time go straight for the key and immediately back out again, before the rocks crash down.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Sept 18, 2013 19:30:27 GMT
Yeah, well, I'm not. Sometimes two, sometimes four, but that's it. I don't think there's time to get the key and rush back out.
Edit: apparently the trick was to move a boulder (that is super hard to find, could we maybe get some character dialogue?) near the button, then grab the key, then telekinetically push the boulder onto the button while trapped behind the rocks. I'm sure this isn't how it's meant to go.
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Post by Basse on Sept 18, 2013 20:30:22 GMT
Not quite, no; you're meant to push the boulder up the mound, then rush for the key while the boulder holds down the mechanism, and then rush out. You shouldn't be able to "push" it from inside the rock wall, or anywhere except right by the boulder... but apparently I've forgot to trigger for that.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Sept 18, 2013 21:36:20 GMT
Okay, all done.
I think I've covered my gripes about gameplay already. The B&D stuff and most of the boss fights are all good, but there are a couple of RPS sections and boss fights which are lacking due to absence of instructions or being frustratingly difficult (in a trial and error, tons of reloads, feels unfair, sense of difficulty, not the good sense). But it's all pretty easily fixable. Likewise for the sections where the balance needs tweaking. The underlying concepts range from solid to brilliant (I loved the boss fights with Xaphira, and the first descent underground is ripe with potential even if it's flawed at the moment).
The story itself is very good. Obviously the story background is shaping up to be superbly well detailed due to all those books and things (when they say something more enlightening than herp a derp). Dialogue and characters are all about as good as you could possibly want from an AoK campaign.
First story quibble: I do wonder what happened to Marvin and Rob though, as they disappear and I can't remember if the player is told where they went.
Second story quibble: Some things aren't explained as well as they might be, or there are very minor niggles. One that stands out in my mind for no good reason is that Mystery Amnesia Man says he didn't count the days, but then later he announces that it is day 93. More significant is that I'm not really sure where everyone gets their information about the relics from - what reason did anyone have to think the Relic of Life was on Kalpireia? I would also like a little more explanation, even if it's just a hint or speculation or is ambiguous, about the power behind the magical barrier on Kalpireia (is it supposed to be God?).
Third story issue: I suppose the main controversy is the twist about Ori being Athalen, and this is what people are divided over. I'll tell you how this whole thing played out to me, and how I think most people will experience it. As soon as we heard that Athalen had sailed away I was damn sure he'd be back, and I was also pretty sure he was the one who stole the Relic of Life (just because how many mysterious powerful magic users can a story sensibly contain). When a mysterious wizard turned up underground my immediate suspicion was that he was Athalen deliberately disguising himself for some reason. Over time however I became moderately doubtful about this for a couple of reasons. Athalen was supposed to be powerful and this guy was rather mediocre (maybe explain more clearly that when he made the relics he was giving up the vast majority of his own power?). Also he was lacking in knowledge and power re the barrier in Kalpireia - and I was assuming that was something put in place by Athalen to create a secret sanctuary for himself (because who would do such a thing if not him? And it fitted with him sailing away). The third reason was that I was assuming Cutscene Amnesia Man was Athalen (who else could he possibly be) and I didn't see how that would fit with him ending up being a wizard hiding underground (I would still quite like to know why Athalen was skulking there). So although I wasn't startled by the reveal, I wasn't rolling my eyes at how obvious it was either (I thought there was a fair chance that Athalen was guarding the Relic of Life himself behind the barrier and would only appear in the final scenes). Some of my reasons for not thinking it was obvious were issues that I don't think are fully explained, even after the reveal, so that might be something to deal with. But the twist does work. Why did some people say they didn't like it (assuming that's what people are divided about)?
A lot of it comes down to what you want to achieve with the twist. Whatever that is, the story would probably benefit from some more clarification and information after the reveal. If you want the twist to be unexpected I think more needs to be done to make Ori=Athalen seem unlikely right from when Ori is introduced, because otherwise I think every player who is familiar with how plot twists work will be suspecting it. There are a few ways you could do this: 1. Dialogue early on where Ori basically lies (or is misleading) to give the impression that he's a normal mortal who has lived only sixty years or so rather than thousands or whatever it is. 2. Rejig the starting cutscene slightly. Have it so that some trusted people do know where Athalen is going and/or have the means to contact him. Say that when the war broke out word was sent to Athalen begging for his help but he did not come (truth: he was late, due to being obsessed with the barrier and his guards not wanting to disturb him) so everyone assumed he was dead or had ceased to care about the mere mortals he left behind. 3. Mystify the loss of the Relic of Life a little more. At the moment it's clear that it's a wizard and other than the heirs there's only one wizard in town, so that establishes a likelihood in the player's mind that Athalen is still involved in affairs and still connected to the relics, and therefore bound to pop up given that the story is all about the relics. 4. Possibly you could even explicitly say that with his powers of immortality put into the Relic of Life, Athalen was accepting mortality and would be due to die fairly soon. This would sow the seed of doubt in the reader's mind that Athalen is still kicking around, and raise the alternative possibility that he's just a narrative device and not a character in the current story. 5. Have Ori be a bit more ignorant about some things, or at least pretending to be ignorant. Obviously for story purposes he needs to reveal certain information to the heroes ahead of time. But you could make his knowledge of the Old Kingdom a bit more sketchy (he did get amnesia after all). One way to achieve this in part would be to have Ori 'accidentally stumble upon' the second cave entrance on Kalpireia rather than say he knows about it. The less Ori reveals that he knows, the more it's plausible that he's just a regular guy.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Sept 19, 2013 15:55:28 GMT
Decided to replay scenario 4 on Hard. Lots of fun, and quite a bit of saving and reloading. It took me a while to realise quite how crucial recapturing the beaches quickly is (you need to game it slightly, so that you have a force of about 25 guys waiting nearby until the wave of enemies pass by on the way to the city). Also lots of spamming pikemen in the later stages, due to crippling food shortages. The attack by Xaphira turned the balance in the enemy's favour almost fatally. The extra troops left me without a land army and with no resources, watching enemy forces trashing my base (another thing is that you need to build lots of structures in your base to delay the enemy when you're low on men). Xaphira's breach in the wall by parliament also tempted enemies to go through it, so I had to rush my fleet to shoot them as they did so. It was a ludicrously close run thing and ended in a bizarre FF where I no longer had villagers, a TC or military buildings. Just before then the way to Parliament was open and I was just able to rush in the cavalry reinforcements before the Statesmaster got himself killed. I wouldn't change a thing about Hard difficulty for this scenario. I'm sure I could do better next time (and therefore resist slightly tougher attacks), but I think it's pitched at a very good level as it is. Yellowside after the battle.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Sept 20, 2013 16:10:52 GMT
More play testing reporting. I had another go at the first playable scenario on hard. On a whim I decided not to go to Fexley at all. I managed to destroy Geistrix's town with just the starting units (hit and run and heal at the librarians). Then I went around completing side quests and getting that Gaia shepherd. Able to do the B&D in relative peace and with the advantage of already having all the side quest resource rewards I rolled over Emyrian very quickly. I could easily have levelled the capital too, but I decided the point was made. Obviously none of this should be possible, so you should trigger barriers to force the player to set up camp at the village. Don't forget to put barriers on the far side of the village too, to prevent an especially sly player running through the village without capturing it.
Also, if you haven't already, ban the player from making mangonels and onagers. They enable all sorts of hi jinks. This is a potential issue in a couple of places throughout the campaign. For example, in scenario 4 the Xaphira that appears by the parliament isn't immortal (ie zero hp) and can therefore be onagered to death. Other potential glitches that probably aren't worth bothering about are the exploitation of lumberjacks, which can eg open up the devil swine forest to being cleared out with cavaliers.
Something that's always worth doing is having a looping trigger that fixes diplomacy towards your allies. Otherwise you could do things like convert Benny the Boar Hunter. I haven't checked if you've already dealt with this, but it's something that often gets missed.
I like the Religion of Potatoes reference by the way.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Sept 20, 2013 21:21:55 GMT
Bug report: When leaving the Crucible, it is possible for Daru to be removed and not replaced, causing the player to lose. This can happen even when the only p1 unit nearby is Immanuel, so a more robust system is needed.
I'm trying to win the first playable scenario on hard in the normal way. It's actually not too tricky if you pay proper attention to your defences rather than just cranking out villagers. Constructing all your new buildings to form a wall does a good job. I've got to the stage where I'm in the imperial age, fully upgraded and with plenty of villagers in a secure base. So I'm more or less assured of winning (bar the crucible bug), unless the ai steps up its game and starts massing troops for a single wave.
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Post by Basse on Sept 21, 2013 20:01:57 GMT
Thanks for the comments Julius! They are hugely helpful. On the first post (I'll have to wait with the others until I have more time on my hands!): It's entirely possible that I forgot to explain their departure altogether. Shouldn't be too hard to add in, though. This I definitely need to look over. I've tried to keep everything consistent, but it's not easy when you create the campaign over the course of 18 months. Thanks for pointing it out though! There will be no definitive answer given, but I'm going to add in some speculation either in the form of a book written by Athalën, or through a dialogue between Ori and our heroes. The primary objection was that the twist came out of nowhere, and that it would've been more awesome if Ori was just an evil wizard that turned on you in the end. The real Athalën should then have appeared and taken the relics... I rather prefer my way, but as someone who's not a big fan of bad Shyamalan-style plot twists I didn't want to do the same mistake myself. I'm still quite uncertain of how obvious I want the make the twist. For example, I think it the magic bolt when the Relic of Life disappears makes it quite obvious that Ori is in fact Athalën, but several playtesters have said they didn't expect Ori to be Athalën at all. Further obscuring the fact might make the twist come out of the blue even more, unless you pay a lot of attention to the story, which not all players will be doing. Still, I might change the magic bolt in the Relic of Life scene to something different. I'm not so sure about explicitly saying Athalën gave away the power of immortality, though, I don't want the twist go explicitly go against what the player has been told before, at least not by the narrator of the cinematics (other character and book writers can be seen as untrustworthy storytellers, but here the narrator is the voice of the story itself and should stick to the facts). Anyways, I'm in the middle of a couple non-AoK projects right now, but I will go over the story more thoroughly when I have the time, and your ideas might very well be put to use. They're good suggestions, I just need to puzzle together the best possible narrative.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Sept 22, 2013 1:54:10 GMT
You're welcome. It's been fun to test it. Having Ori be just some evil guy after all could be an okay twist, but your current story is better. If Ori made a play for the relics himself after Xaphira was defeated then surely the heroes should be able to defeat him without Athalen's help, seeing as they already defeated Xaphira and Ori isn't credible as being more dangerous than Xaphira (if he was he wouldn't be tagging along with the heroes in the first place, or lying low in a cave before they turn up). For that reason it would be silly to have Athalen intervene only then, after doing nothing at all against Xaphira. You could not involve Athalen at all and have the heroes defeat Ori as the final boss, but Athalen being involved is a large part of the payoff (otherwise the story background doesn't matter as the relics are just maguffins that happen to exist). It's difficult to balance how obvious the twist should be. In my opinion the ideal is to obscure the truth a lot, but have some subtle chinks in the facade to tip off the observant player that something is not quite right (perhaps enough that they could figure out the truth if they took a break and thought about it, but won't if they just follow it at the normal pace). Then the reveal should be shown to fit what happened before better than the facade did (so character decisions that seemed stupid now make sense, for example).
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Post by Basse on Apr 20, 2014 19:21:37 GMT
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Post by HockeySam18 on Apr 20, 2014 20:42:52 GMT
Congrats Basse!!!
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Post by HockeySam18 on Apr 30, 2014 13:56:52 GMT
Btw Basse, you might want to edit he SWS main homepage to reflect the release of RoA- as of now it still has RR up there as the most recent release.
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Post by Basse on May 1, 2014 8:51:16 GMT
Ah, yes. I'd almost forgotten we had a main website.
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Post by Basse on May 24, 2014 12:40:45 GMT
I'm very proud to say that RoA is the first campaign that promises invisible flying bananas and actually delivers on that promise. And yes, I dare all of you who intend to/have played the campaign to find it.
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Post by HockeySam18 on May 24, 2014 16:29:44 GMT
I'm still trying to figure out how to smash Xaphira's camp with a pair of Dark Guardians
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on May 25, 2014 16:39:44 GMT
Did you data-edit a tiny unit with no visible graphic and flying mode and call it a banana?
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Post by Basse on May 25, 2014 19:30:36 GMT
Pretty much. It had to be done.
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Post by Basse on May 17, 2020 14:31:24 GMT
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