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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 10, 2007 16:42:45 GMT
We had quite a lively discussion going on over in the dusty chambers of the poll archive, so I thought I'd make something a little more suitable.
Questions:
1. Should homosexual couples be allowed to adopt? 2. Are you an atheist or do you believe in a Supreme Being, and why? 3. Do you think religious views need to change with the times? 4. What are the differences between the main faiths, according to you?
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Post by jon. on Dec 11, 2007 2:57:40 GMT
I don't really see any major problems, other than it not being traditional. Aside from what I've said in the poll threads, I think that there isn't really that big of a deal. Being gay is from birth, which means he wouldn't necessarily turn homosexual if raised by those type of parents. But, because it isn't traditional and a male-female parent relationship is probably the way to go, I will say that I am against homosexual couples adopting.However, on the other hand, with Lesbians, that's a whole different story.
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Post by Basse on Dec 11, 2007 6:35:20 GMT
To add my thoughts from the old thread: I'm against hyomosexual adoption because I believe every child has a right to grow up with both a mother and a father, to be grow up with both of the sexes around them. Many who are against me say that uncles/aunts and other relatives could be the male/female source in a childs growth, but that doesn't convince me. The parents are those who are around you most of the time and if you are only influenced by either males or females, you wont get a normal childhood. This and a simple yet often forgotten argument; humans were not created to be able to get children through male-male or female-female relations, only male-female relations. So why should be go against the laws of nature? A homosexual couple cannot replace a mother and father. Every child has a right to have both a mother and father and get a normal childhood with influences both from the male and female sex. This, as well as my religious reasons, is why I believe homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to adopt children. As for 'people being born gay' I must add that many "gays" are only gay because it's now accepted in soceity (at least up here). Magazines and media tell people to experiment with everything, to "find out" if they're gay or not, that everything is right and accepted etc. This is anotehr reason why Sweden's corrupted. We strictly want to defend our rights about free speech, yet, when you say what you truely believe you're charged with breaking a law against discrimination. No really, if it isn't allowed to say anything against homosexuals, why is it allowed to speak against christians? The entire christian system isn't based on that God is a hobby, as many seem to believe, being christian is a lifestyle. To further add to the discussion, let me just show three Biblical verses from the New Testament: Romans 1:24-28 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 1 Timothy 1:8-11 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
I have a theory though that being homosexual could be one of the challenges set up for a person. Since God proclaims that being doing homosexual acts is just as bad as killing someone, it could be a obstacle for them to overcome. Others face different obsatcles in life where they need to stick to what God sais until the end, no matter what, or fall into blindness (not literarily). For everyone God has a purpose, and with every purpose there comes obstacles. Perhaps the obstacle for homosexuals is to maintain a normal life, and therefor God created this gene to bring the obastacle to those he chose. While other have drinking problems, faith problems etc. these people have the urge for homosexuality.
Having this said, I must point out that this only is my theory, nothing I've been learned from a pastor or anyone else. This is, as far as I know, only my theory.
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Post by Basse on Dec 12, 2007 18:53:53 GMT
Should we change subject? I say let question two be about abortion.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 12, 2007 19:21:24 GMT
No, we don't discuss that right now. At this particular moment I'm sick to death of that pathetic debate.
I will however add a new question.
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Post by Basse on Dec 12, 2007 19:27:35 GMT
Alright then, I'm a Christian, baptist. Why? Thanks to the obvious evidense that exist and happend in the world today and has happend before. I'll give you a list of evidense, or two, when I feel like writing. Probably tomorrow since I have much time to spend on the computer then
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 12, 2007 19:29:28 GMT
I personally am an atheist. My reason being that there is so much wrong in the world that I find it hard to believe that a compassionate omnipotent God exists. And I prefer not to think about the alternatives that God is a) Apathetic or b) Malevolent or c) Being over-powered by a supreme evil being.
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Post by jon. on Dec 12, 2007 22:21:22 GMT
Christian. God > Atheists There is a reason the world is becoming corrupt...
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Post by Mashek on Dec 13, 2007 6:04:19 GMT
I'm sick to death of the abortion topic too. I really don't want to stand anywhere in it. I believe in God without a second thought. I simply cannot, will not deny him. I now know he exists. Nothing can change that. So many things have happened to me that I cannot even describe. I first began looking for God because I was deeply unfullfilled with life. I once stated to myself just last year that "If there is no God, then I do not want to waste any more of my time here living." which hurt me just thinking about. Because truly, what was the point in crapping in this world if all that awaited us was darkness? There is so much wrong in the world (no doubt something I'm a contributor too as well), so much crap, that I just couldn't accept that everything was in vain, without point. I prayed for God to reveal himself to me if he were really there, and over time, I began changing, thinking about God, talking to him in my own spare time, knowing that I was being heard. It was when one day I went into my room and I could feel this immense feeling of sorrow buried on my chest and stomach. I felt like I was about to bawl my eyes out. I tried to fight it off, but it overtook me and I fell to my knees crying like I've never cried before. I felt a deeply warm presence come over me, and everything of darkness, hate and anger drain from me. Afterwards, over the coming months, I found myself inhabited by God's spirit. Always I feel so warm and comforted (even now). I am able to look at people with love, look at trees, grass and birds with open joy. I have spoken an inhuman language a few times, which feels weird. I feel like someone else is within me as I feel something happen to my tongue, that I can roll it, and I'm able to speak words to God that I don't even know the meaning of. The language has many B's, S's and H's in it. Sometimes when just walking, minding my own business, I will look at a tree or something and I will suddenly get a feeling which invokes a powerful sense of something within me and I get an image of a smiling man and woman, sometimes of a beautiful land. One thing I have learnt about God is to not confuse him with religion or the decisions man has made, which is one reason why I will not consider myself Christian, as to me it is merely a religion which gets caught up in the world too many times. To me, God is so beautiful, loving, caring, gentle and warm (the list goes on!). He is so passionate about all things living, and personal too. I can always sense him around me, in all things. When he comes to me everything is made absolutely pure and warm, and all things around me are so meaningful, from cobweb, stones, dust to shanty-looking houses. When I first felt God's presence I was so joyous. I remember walking to TAFE one morning whistling and always grinning. I laughed with joy when I saw some guy eating a pie while driving his car to work, even though that could possibly earn him a ticket or his death bed. Also, as far as I'm concerned, man does everything bad in the world. God will not involve himself in our affairs by openly putting a halt to them as that would mean having people love him through fear and seeing, when he wants love only through faith that he does exist, even if one can't see him, because it is most pure and truthful. Anyway, those are my reasons. If you plan to take me for a liar with an overly creative mind then that's your loss. I still can't even comprehend how someone like God even exists at all. For me he is more than just a "god" or just some "Supreme Being". Anyway, I'm just an average human like you or anyone else. Don't treat me differently because of what I said here. I'm not some over-zealous religious nut spreading the so-called word of God and ordering bloodshed, and despite what some people think about people's belief in God, I do not believe in God because of some fear of death or just to garner some attention. Also, excuse me for going overboard with the word count.
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Andan
Stormwind Member
Andan
Attempting to design a scenario
Posts: 756
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Post by Andan on Dec 13, 2007 12:04:53 GMT
If only English was my first language, I'd be much more vigorous to join the discussion with a lively opinion coming from my head.
For the least, I'll just put up a summary of my complex thoughts about these two questions in a way that would prevent you from closing your ears and eyes. Like Mashek, I'm not trying to be a zealot, an extremist, a fanatic or other worse things.
First question: Representated by Reply #2 that hails from Banishlight.
Second question: I believe in a Supreme Being. That Supreme Being is called God. That God is called Allah.
My religion is Islam, and I'm very proud of it. Most of Earth's inhabitants see us Muslims with only one side of their eyes, one side of their ears, and half of their brains. 7/11, Al-Qaeda, Saddam Hussein, and other worldly phenomenon succeded in making them regard us nothing more than terrorists and blood-thirsty pigs. That is understandable, yet very cruel.
We're just the same with you folks. We have a religion to hold, a book of guidance to keep, and a God to worship. We all guaranteed to spend our eternal life in hell if we decide to spend our temporary momentum in this world by doing sins. It is written in the Qur'an, and spoken by God Himself. Killing people can be an unforgivable sin, unless the related people forgive the murderer, and the murderer himself atone for his crimes and turn to the right way.
Sadly, most of our believers weren't truly "believers". Sure, all of us believe in the existence of Allah as the One who Created the universe and its creatures, knowing that had he not existed, then we won't exist as well. Some of us defied the teachings of the Qur'an and redefine its contents. This catastrophy led us to confusion about which one is right and which one is wrong. That's why things like terrorism happened. They took it as one form of Jihad (a holy war in the name of Islam). True, the meaning of Jihad obliges us to fight non-Muslims, under one condition: They spit on our religion and fight against us physically. We're never allowed to kill anyone, even non-Muslims, as long as they live in peace and are not destroying a country like Palestine.
I apologize, it turned out that I ran off the road too far, so let me finish my sentences with this statement. God does exist. We can't see nor hear Him. But we can talk to Him through our prayers. We can't hear Him answering our whines and begs, but in time, good, unexpected things shall happen, and we will just be unaware that God is indeed answering our prayers, as long as we have the willing to put an effort. Just like in life, you can't get something just by wanting it, but not actually doing anything to achieve it.
Please don't feel offended in any way, but if you do, accept my deepest apologize.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 13, 2007 16:17:31 GMT
I can appreciate Andan's position - Terrorists in the name of religion give it an unfairly bad name. Just like the people at Abu Ghraib prison gave the British and Americans an unfairly bad reputation. It's a great shame that some people react to Islam as a whole because of a few extremists.
I found Mashek's words touching also, but cannot say they have the same significance for me. Much as I respect such faith I just can't rationalise God myself. On the other hand, this gives me my driving force - to try and make things better (the reaosn I like politics) and attempt to remedy some of the ills of the world. I don't feel that life is pointless if only darkness is at the end, it makes me value my life more. And I don't think that if humanity is all there is, that that isn't enough - I don't feel the need for faith to have a fulfilling life.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I can't entirely understand the statement that man is the cause of all evil. What about the sensation of pain? What about the fragility of our bodies? What about Alzheimer's Disease, and all the other terrible things, that can happen to good people?
There are some quotations from my favourite book (Catch 22) which sum this up quite nicely (I recommend you read it by the way, it isn't an atheist rant by any means, and many Christians and other faiths enjoy it).
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Post by Basse on Dec 13, 2007 17:04:53 GMT
What I dont understand about atheism, and especially the Big Bang theory that is overly popular these days, is the unclear "logic" within it. Let me explain myself.
The Big Bang theory indicates that the Universe expanded from an enourmous explotion many billions of years ago. This explotion was caused by the particles that axisted back then and later formed the Universe as it is today. And here's the catch. If the Universe came from this explotion, and the explotion from the particles, where did the particles come from? They cannot have come out of nowhere, since nothing can create nothing, and something has to exist in order to create something.
The whole Big Bang theory is irrelevant if it doesn't accept the existance of a Supreme Being that first created the particles and then made them explode.
Another argument against Big Bang is quite simple; if a collition of particles could cause an immense explotion back then, why hasn't it happend again for 20 billion years? the particles still exist and are everywhere and in everything. Why would an event like this happend only once, if not controlled by something, a supreme being?
Onto the question how God could create the world in six days, which many people I know - who are atheists - see as one of the major fakes with christian belief. The Bible claims that God created the Universe and all within it in six days. Now how the world did he manage to do all that in 144 hours? Well, as I see it, there are two options:
1) God's days - as the Bible claims at one point - isn't like man's days. A day for God can be a million years for man, and a day for man can be a million years for God. God doesn't use the same flow of time as humans do. Therefor he had all the time he wanted when he created the Earth and the Universe.
2) The most relevant theory, according to me. The simple answer to the wuestion about how God managed to do it all, is that God is not human. As his "title" sais, he is a supreme being - the supreme being - and his actions aren't seen in same way by him and us. He doesn't have to make up plans for how the world should look, then start designing with clay or in codes, then test it out a bazillion times to make entire ecosystems work and be indestructable. He can do it all in less than a blink of the eye. The fact that he took six days to create the universe and then had a day to rest was probably only done so that we would create our own timesystems with Sunday as resting day. His powers are incomprehendable. I sure believe the world is merely 6000 years old, and all the so called evidense that say it's 4.6 billion years old can be proved wrong by a few sentences; Those are the remainings of God's work. It was God's intention to make it look like the Earth had existed for 4.6 billion years, it was all in his plan. If God wants, he can make it look like dinosaur skeletons and ancient human skeletons date from very different ages, when they in fact lived side by side, or in different areas of the world. God wrote the laws of physics. He controls how old an object is through the view of radiocarbon, he has made the mountains seem older than they actually are. All this is seen in our eyes, but in his eyes it all makes sense.
Over to another of the big problems with atheism; Evolution.
To me, evolution is something you see in pokémon. Real evolution is inexistent. If it takes several million years for a species to evolve to another, hos is it supposed to survive along the way is it evolves into a very different species, with different build of its body? Partly finished bodyparts and most stages in evolution has been proved impossible to survive by scientists. And if evolution was real, why dont we see it today? Sure, it takes forever for it to happend, but why haven't we seen any differense in the years we can map out through research? God's action made it look like evolution took place. The species he created may look much like each other, but they're still different species. Their bodies are made for special objectives, and different species may look like other ones.
And so, last (for this time at least), why I believe that the Christian God is the existing supreme being.
What makes me most convinced about God's existance and that he's the God that christians believe in, is that the words he gave to the prophets are being fulfilled as we speak, has been under fulfilling ever since they were spoken. No one before WW2 ever thought that the jews would get back their homeland, with an exception for the Sionists. But the Bible sais, at several points, that God shall establish a country for his people - Israel - where Juda's tribe once lived, the promised land. He also said that it would start out as a desert when the jews come there, but be in full bloom when they've started living there. The israelis have planted millions and millions of trees in their land and literaly made it bloom. Just look at the Jaffa grapes and oranges. Both Daniel, in his dreams from Nebukadnessar, and John in the Book of Revelation, speek of four kingdoms - four beasts - that will arise before Jesus returns. The three first, and their modern versions, have already existed and fallen, and the fourth, the most horrible and powerful is rising today (I'll get deeper into that in another post). 666 symbolicism is larger and wider known than ever before, massive killing and massacre as the Bible speaks of is now possible through nuclear weapons, the mark in the hand or forehead are soon becoming real; a small chip in either the hand or forehead will quite soon be a must when you're going to go shopping or take controls anywhere. Scientists have also come to the conclusion that the chips can be selfcaring by producing energy from shifting body heat, something that is only possible if the chip is placed on the forehead or in the hand. See it coming? How practical wouldn't it be if you could throw all material money in the garbage can and have your wallet and bank account with you wherever you go? No risk for thieves to steal your money, unless they cut your hand off, easier for the companies and common people than the old money.
That'll conclude it for now. Phew, that was probably my longest post ever.
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Post by Basse on Dec 13, 2007 17:16:01 GMT
To Mashek; I can understand that you dont want to tie up with a specific religion for your own reasons. But if you take a look at what's happening in the world today, and read the Book of Revelation and the book of Daniel at the same time, you will notice the precision of which the Bible talks of what's happening in the world today, and how it will be before it all ends. You could hopefully get an even broader picture than you have already. A possible proof that you've met God and no evil spirit is the mysterious language. This blessing was given to the apostles soon after Jesus had left for heaven and has ever since then been possible to achieve for every believing Christian. I even recognise the letters you mention from people I know who speak in tongues (or whatever it's called in English). It is a language from God. A pastor I know told me about a man who had been speaking in tongues for a long time, repeating the same words every evening. After a while he was contacted by a woman that thanked him for praying for her husband/mother (I dont remeber who he'd been praing for), and he said that he hadn't prayed for her/him, he didn't even know the person. It showed up that in this language, the Holy Ghost inside him had made him pray for the woman/man in tongues, even if he didnt know who exactly he was praying for. To all; I'm not sick to death of the abortion topic, simply because I've never had a chanse to debate it. the only time we've talked about it in school as during biology, where they mentioned that 30 000 kids were killed every year through abortion, a total of a million since it was legalized in Sweden. That's pretty much the only time I've had a discussion about it, and that discussion was far from interesting since it was awfully short and very few said anything.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 13, 2007 17:42:05 GMT
Basse, if I were you I would stick to general questions, not specifics. Bear in mind that greater minds than you or I have discussed this before and that all the ground on evolution and origins of the Universe and so on have already been covered. Considering that you are effectively pitting inexplicable faith against fact-based science this route can never have any success.
Nevertheless:
Why do you say that? Just because we don't know why something happened doesn't mean you can just discount it as irrelevant.
Science has a selection of answers to this one. The particles back then were different to any that now exist; there aren't currently enough of them; the circumstances have never been right since. Take your pick.
The theory of evolution assumes that changes take millions of years to occur, the two centuries we have of reliable records are therefore obviously not going to be able to pick it up. Also, scientists have found that evolution can be speeded up (and was therefore observable, and it happened) in the right conditions. Evolution was supposed to be gradual, and if you think about it it makes perfect sense for something with a primitive eye to survive (and so a complex eye later develops) better than something with no eye at all - I'd like to see any research that proves evolution couldn't work. Find any and I'll take it all back.
Look, you can read anything into predictions you like. If I predict right now that "there shall a come a time when fruit speaks among men", you can bet your life that in 2000 years someone will be able to interpret that as having happened. To give two examples from what you say:
Israel is still a desert country, and soon they may have to give some of their 'promised land' up to the Palestinians.
Of course great power is going to arise. As technology develops, so do weapons. It was always on the cards that humanity would one day develop the technology to extinguish itself with ease.
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I'm not here to "prove science is better than religion", just to point out that this is all common ground, and the theories still stand. There is no scientific proof for God, and for that reason when you take it down to the level of proof and theory, faith will never win. There will always be a scientific explanation.
Let's keep the discussion out of that, I'm interested in what you think and believe, not what other people have already said.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 13, 2007 17:44:07 GMT
Believe me, it doesn't go anywhere interesting, and more often than not degenerates into bickering. It all comes down to whether you think the right of the mother to choose or right of the unborn child to live comes first. That's it.
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Post by Basse on Dec 13, 2007 18:55:49 GMT
But do you honestly believe there will be a scientific answer to where everything came from before Big Bang? The only possible way to make Big Bang a relevant theory is if it was started by a supreme being, since nothing can come from nothing.
Tsk. If you take a close look at what the Bible sais about the last days and then compare it with what's happening in the world at the moment, and has happend the last 100 years, you'll notice that the Bible has been prooved right at more points than neccesary to not be random. Does it really sound logic to you that one man, at one point, would've made up ideas of nuclear weapons killing millions, microchips being operated into the hands and foreheads, four of the most tyrranic and horrible empires, seen from a jewish point of view, to all come before Jesus' return, the desert of Israel to bloom etc? Sure, the desert isn't a rainforest nowadays, nor a ginormous oasis, but compared to what it was before Israel became reality, it has bloomed. Let me show you a text from the bible and them compare it with modern day history:
Jeremiah 16:14-16 "However, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when men will no longer say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,' but they will say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers. "But now I will send for many fishermen," declares the LORD, "and they will catch them. After that I will send for many hunters, and they will hunt them down on every mountain and hill and from the crevices of the rocks. My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from me, nor is their sin concealed from my eyes. I will repay them double for their wickedness and their sin, because they have defiled my land with the lifeless forms of their vile images and have filled my inheritance with their detestable idols."
The land of the north was in these days the lands north of Israel, meaning Europe and Russia.
The fisherman were the sionists in the 30-ies, warning the jews about what was about to happend in Germany and other countries. Most of the jews there didn't take them seriously and stayed in their homes.
The hunters could sure be the nazis. They brought many jews on the run, chased them down until not many were left. The question remains if modern Israel would've existed if it wasn't for the nazis.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 13, 2007 19:15:05 GMT
My point is you can interpret anything as an accurate prediction. Do you know how horoscopes work? They make statements that can mean a number of things, and in one way or another they apply to everyone. It's the same principle - you see it in pretty much every soothsayer's words from Nostradamus to Mother Shipton.
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Post by Basse on Dec 13, 2007 19:43:09 GMT
Well of course, pretty much anything can be seen as a sign. But most of these so called signs are just rubbish and have very weak arguments. If you study the Bible, which I advice you to do if you want to see more directly what I mean, you'll see that the prophecies coming true are more than random babble with no background.
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Post by Mashek on Dec 13, 2007 23:26:26 GMT
@jules Forgive me Julius, I didn't exactly cover what I meant. My statement, "Also, as far as I'm concerned, man does everything bad in the world." was a means to say that we make our own decisions in what we do, that God would not openly reveal himself and put an end to all wrong (at least yet), because it would have people believing in him the wrong way. And by "everything bad in the world" I mean things such as war, rape and murder. And that's the thing, so many good people, of which I think most of the human race is good, are oppressed by others' wrongs and misgivings. And of course there comes diseases, of which a few members of my family have died from cancer. I don't mean to have no faith in mankind, blaming us for everything that happens. Some things just can't be seen and happen. On the other topic, you cannot rationalise God. You simply and utterly cannot. I look at God everytime and still wonder how on earth he is at all possible. I mean, such good did not exist before spring last year. It simply did not. I could never imagine myself as the person I am today if this were september last year. I believed in the possibility of God, but beyond that I had no opinion. But God is still very mysterious. He always will be, and that's the delight in it all. @basse "why I believe that the Christian God is the existing supreme being." (Guys, how do you do quotes?) That's why I don't want to involve myself with any religion, Basse. I can't, I won't believe that God is Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Catholic - no disrespect at all to any religion. God is God. God once said "I am what I am" which tells me he is his own, he does not belong to a single religion. He is not of this world, not of any religion, though he surely speaks through religion, as well as without it. God did not say, as far as I know, that he wanted only those who call themselves Christians to inherit his kingdom. He said he wanted those pure of heart etc... "What makes me most convinced about God's existance and that he's the God that christians believe in..." I am convinced that there is one God, and that he is the God all (reasonable) religions believe in. He is the God of man, not of Christianity or of any other religion specifically, although Christian, if followed correctly, adhere to what God and Jesus said through the bible. "I can understand that you dont want to tie up with a specific religion for your own reasons. But if you take a look at what's happening in the world today, and read the Book of Revelation and the book of Daniel at the same time, you will notice the precision of which the Bible talks of what's happening in the world today, and how it will be before it all ends. You could hopefully get an even broader picture than you have already." Why do you think I have a limited picture? I mean, I'm by all means not all knowing, but I think you take me the wrong way, Basse. I believe I began paying attention to God and Jesus because of prophecies of the end times, which deeply interested me, because of the book of revelations. I currently read the bible sometimes everyday because it speaks to me in ways (and how it would surely speak to you) which are perfect to what I'm going through at the time. For example, if I ask God for an answer to a particular ordeal, I simply flick to a random page and there the answer is. Perfect! This happens everytime, so I know that it isn't simply coincidence. I reckon Basse I have the same faith as a Christian or Muslim, but I don't believe we have to be a Christian or Muslim to believe in God. I never found God as a Christian or Muslim. I was no religious person when I found God (by means that I adhered to a group) and I still aren't. I once read that if we are called by God as a certain person or in a certain group (such as Christianity) that we should stay with that group and as the person as we were called. I was called as someone who was looking for God, had no religion, and I have never had God say to me that I must be religous. I am certain God wants me as someone righteous and persevering. God came to me in the way that was perfect for me, through nature, through things I saw, rather than through the brick walls of a church. This does not mean I should not go to church or that it is bad, as the one I occasionally go to is quite cool - no restrictions or boring like many think - it merely means that I should seek God the way I found him, which was, without religion and through nature, which works best for my faith. I respect all religion (except Scientology etc, seeing as it was a book and the author said it was never real), but I am not going to be a Christian or Muslim myself. I still read the bible, sometimes speak tongues, talk to God all the time - the same as any religion-based person does - I just don't go under names such as Christianity because it is not necessary to talking or being with God. I love God because he is the God of all, not of one particular group. He loves all and he wants to talk to all. "A possible proof that you've met God and no evil spirit is the mysterious language." Indeed, especially feeling an immense warmth and joy that is purely indescribable and perfect. Sometimes I can simply look at a tree and suddenly feel a nudge of goodness awaken within me. AndanIndeed, all I used to hear was bad things about muslims and in particular "Easterners" with the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. I can't understand such prejudice.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 14, 2007 15:53:04 GMT
Exactly, and for me nothing has ever happened whereby I felt like that. In my view faith is one of a number of outcomes of some sort of emotional or psychological trauma - such as depression.
This is interesting. If I was to take a guess, I would say that you have an inner conviction and that the text helps you realise it. Rather than the other way round. And that your faith is necessary for this to work, which is obviously great, but doesn't work for me.
People have a lot of internal anger (in general. Apologies to the Dalai Lama), and often self-righteousness takes over. Scientifically, a vestige of tribal attitudes.
I am a sceptic by nature, and that is the reason for my lack of religious faith. I don't begrudge others theirs, but I feel fine and if anything, more driven, as I am. This is why I dislike aggressive evangelism (not that I'm accusing any of you of that!).
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Post by Basse on Dec 14, 2007 17:17:11 GMT
I think I only have one thing to add right now;
Scientific facts are only relevant for scientific believers, just as religious evidense only is relevant in the eyes of those who believe in the religion. Scientific evidense can easily be rejected in christian eyes and vice versa. We simply dont follow the same system. Christians dont take for granted that anything that is prooved scientifically correct is correct, only a piece of the Lord's creation that man has got some insight to. Science would win the debate if the viewers believed in science, and religion would win if the viewers were religious. Scientific proof is not the only proof in this world.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 14, 2007 18:22:09 GMT
I was saying that you seemed to be making it a little scientific by mentioning things like Big Bang Theory and Evolution. And there is a wealth of scientific proof there, especially for the later.
Are you saying that your religion precludes science? Do you, for example, dispute the existence of atoms? Or the accuracy of the periodic table of elements? Or Newton's laws of motion?
In my opinion faith is entirely different, and doesn't have to conflict with science or assume that every word of a sacred text is literally true. Bringing religion into conflict with science is (to my way of thinking) very foolish, as faith is nebulous and personal and science is hard fact; they only oppose each other if people make it that way. And if you start disputing scientific theories, religion will lose out; they are two different worlds, but that doesn't mean you can only believe one of them. Every single Christian I've met agrees with science, and they don't think "it's easy to reject scientific evidence in Christian eyes".
And a fundamental part of religion is that it isn't proven. That's what faith is, belief without physical proof.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 14, 2007 18:27:46 GMT
Also, a sometimes interesting point of discussion is whether the bounds of conventional religion are needed for "true" faith.
Mashek has more or less explained his reasons why not; but I'd be interested to see whether Basse thinks it is needed, and if so, why.
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Post by Basse on Dec 14, 2007 19:21:37 GMT
I dont reject the existance of the atom or the laws of gravity, but I see them as part of what we've discovered of God's wonders. The entire system that the universe is built on is too complex for us to understand, only God and those in heaven can. new discoveries in nature just prooves that we all we made by God, and that his powers are stronger than we can comprehend.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 14, 2007 19:54:27 GMT
Then why can't evolution and the Big Bang also be reconciled with God?
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Post by Basse on Dec 14, 2007 21:47:43 GMT
As I said, Big Bang is only possible if God created it, so yes it can be connected with God. But evolution states that man comes from the chimpanzees and monkeys, something the Bible clearly state that we dont; we're a picture of God, not the spawn of a monkey.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 14, 2007 22:19:17 GMT
What is the Bible isn't always literally true? God changed a lot of what he said in the Old Testament for example.
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Post by Basse on Dec 15, 2007 11:53:30 GMT
Much of what's in the Bible isn't supposed to be taken literarily, but when it clearly states that he created us as a picture of him and gave us free will, I think we should consider it true.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Dec 15, 2007 18:50:26 GMT
Hmm. It also clearly states 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'. Do you go along with that?
Nothing wrong if you do, I'm just interested. If that wasn't clear.
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Post by Basse on Dec 15, 2007 20:41:57 GMT
That's a part that has been changed, or retold, by Jesus in the New Testament. Instead of the old version, Jesus said that one should forgive everyone for their sins towards you, pray for your enemies and those who dislike you etc. I bet you know that part. I believe God, for some reason, had different rules when he only (or mostly) helped Israel, since the Jews are God's people and Israel is God's country. But after Jesus' time embodied on Earth, many things changed. The probably biggest was that the Holy Ghost was brought to all of mankind, as well as the ability to mspeak in tongues, who had earlier only been given to priests and kings. No problem. I'm not offended unless you, or anyone, clearly attacks me and my faith. In, like, japanime-style As I'm a christian I believe in the words of Jesus, and he proclaimed following: John 14:6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
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