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Post by Julius CMXCIX on May 7, 2008 16:37:03 GMT
In general, extremists in any cause are very damaging. Beware the politician who claims to be enlightened, we are all fallible.
Matty, I am confused as you have quoted me and then gone on to say that I am totally uninformed on the Bible and implied that I think Christianity is a religion of persecution. Is that aimed at me or not? I'm happy to defend my position on the Bible if need be.
Jatayu, could you please be a little more pure in your arguments? Linking to videos which play entirely on emotion has no part in reasoned debate.
Nothing is infallible Matty. For a start translation from the original texts is very tricky (there are a number of passages where in recent years the wording has been changed from the original translations).
You give examples, but that doesn't mean intolerance automatically applies to all Christians. People do lots of things in the name of completely unrelated things. Your argument has no bearing on the creditibility of the Bible, which is the only reason we are discussing the Bible in this topic.
I want this not to devolve into a fight over the Bible, so if you wouldn't mind...
The Bible cannot be accepted as evidence in the evolution vs Creationism argument. Arguing over the Bible itself can be done another time.
If you had an aim in asking for our religious views Matty, please continue with it.
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Jatayu
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Post by Jatayu on May 7, 2008 17:45:04 GMT
Jatayu, could you please be a little more pure in your arguments? Linking to videos which play entirely on emotion has no part in reasoned debate. ... You give examples, but that doesn't mean intolerance automatically applies to all Christians. People do lots of things in the name of completely unrelated things. Your argument has no bearing on the creditibility of the Bible, which is the only reason we are discussing the Bible in this topic. Point taken. I have edited the post.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on May 7, 2008 18:31:58 GMT
Thanks, I appreciate it.
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Matt
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Post by Matt on May 7, 2008 21:50:47 GMT
In general, extremists in any cause are very damaging. Beware the politician who claims to be enlightened, we are all fallible. Matty, I am confused as you have quoted me and then gone on to say that I am totally uninformed on the Bible and implied that I think Christianity is a religion of persecution. Is that aimed at me or not? I'm happy to defend my position on the Bible if need be. Jatayu, could you please be a little more pure in your arguments? Linking to videos which play entirely on emotion has no part in reasoned debate. Nothing is infallible Matty. For a start translation from the original texts is very tricky (there are a number of passages where in recent years the wording has been changed from the original translations). You give examples, but that doesn't mean intolerance automatically applies to all Christians. People do lots of things in the name of completely unrelated things. Your argument has no bearing on the creditibility of the Bible, which is the only reason we are discussing the Bible in this topic. I want this not to devolve into a fight over the Bible, so if you wouldn't mind... The Bible cannot be accepted as evidence in the evolution vs Creationism argument. Arguing over the Bible itself can be done another time.If you had an aim in asking for our religious views Matty, please continue with it. My mistake I meant to quote Jatayu and hit your post. Must have looked confusing.
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Matt
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Post by Matt on May 7, 2008 22:08:52 GMT
1. Because, gee I don't know, if an angel comes to your house and gives you one commandment and you are such a jerk you can't obey it for 10 minutes, maybe you deserve it?
You can draw lots of applications, but not every verse in the bible is applicable to every situation. Still one might look at the fact that many places in the world have surpassed the immoral behavior of Sodom. If they were punished, a lesson is there?
3. Lot sinned when he left Abraham to live in a city he knew was wicked, but he is still a good person who had made mistakes. He is a just person, but nobody is perfect.
4. Obviously not, don't be belittling. The bible clearly records it as a sin. In addition the offspring of the two daughters founded to nations which were constantly a problem for the jews. There is some lesson in that as well actually.
To be honest, I would rather not continue this conversation. As you may all recall, I specifically tried to keep Christianity out of the discussion, but Jatayu has serious hatred problems towards every religion and can't really control them from coming out. Saying stuff like "grow up" or "bible thumper" to me, when he is the one reading this stuff off some wacko's site is intellectually insulting. I don't know about the educational state of India, but here in North America having a religion doesn't make you a Moron. I would rather the conversation was conducted where both sides respected the others views. I just don't think it is possible.
I have come to be rather good internet acquaintances with you all here at Stormwind, and (to my knowledge) have never offended any of you. I would hate to do it over religion.
Jatayu, me and you have a lot in common, but obviously religious views isn't one of them. There isn't much sense in ruining everything over something where it is most obvious neither of us is really going to change his view.
I did enjoy this debate, but I feel it is getting way too personal. THis is usually the case with these sorts of debates, I am really surprised it took so long ot happen actually.
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Jatayu
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Post by Jatayu on May 8, 2008 2:03:47 GMT
1. Because, gee I don't know, if an angel comes to your house and gives you one commandment and you are such a jerk you can't obey it for 10 minutes, maybe you deserve it? Jeez, typical biblical morality. So therefore being a little curious and looking back at a town being destroyed is enough to qualify you as a jerk and therefore eligible for being murdered. Mmm.. Actually, having a religion doesn't automatically make you a moron and I never said that. I have a religion as well. The problem is when people simply refuse to criticise their religion and/or certain troublesome aspects of it. Ok. Lets start something else. How about homosexuality? Wait, we already did that. I wasn't there though.. How about this one? Why do Americans worship the biblical god, the god of a small patch of desert land in the middle east, rather than a North American god? Edit: Wait, scrap those, I've been thinking about this one for a while. Is it possible for a Christian to criticize certain aspects of the bible and/or God and still remain a Christian? For example criticize God for murdering Lot's wife ( a very tiny detail in a huge bible )? Please remember that this is the crux of my 'dead religion' argument. In the dark ages, you couldn't do this because you would get burned at stake or something similarly ghastly. This is also the reason why Muslims cannot criticize their rapist warlord of a prophet.
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Post by Mashek on May 8, 2008 13:10:05 GMT
To be Christian is to live in Jesus and God, and them in you, so criticising the bible for certain verses or even God Himself will not make you less of a Christian.
To make a point, my anger and patience got the better of me one night and I told God to go and F*** himself. I was depressed afterwards, but it did not make me any less of a believer.
Too, I have seriously questioned God's good for why he would flood the world and drown everybody and everything, even if all the people were that evil. But I believe such moments only produce more faith.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on May 8, 2008 15:00:39 GMT
I wonder what the mechanics of that would be? It was a decent dicussion anyway, and I think we came up with the conclusion that it is impossible to disprove any theory and that therefore gives no reason for believers to ditch Creationism. Although I still see there being no positive evidence for that theory, and so I personally think it isn't right to teach it as scientific truth in schools (science should stick to where the main body of evidence lies, in education at least). Would any of you disagree with me on this? On the new discussion, I would agree with Mahek's position. Complete adherence to a man made text is not necessary to be a Christian, did Jesus not say that all who accept him are Christians? That was one of his central teachings as I recall. I would see the Bible more as an aid (for inspiration, advice etc).
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Post by Scuddles! on May 8, 2008 22:00:51 GMT
No mention of Nietzsche yet? It's the perfect thread stopper to religious debates that go around in circles.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on May 9, 2008 14:52:01 GMT
Who's going in circles? Perhaps in the sub-moronic circles in which you mix, but...
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Post by Scuddles! on May 9, 2008 18:06:41 GMT
I think that would cover the whole internet. Religion and the internet don't go well as you always have some tub thumpers out there who just can't accept that there is a thing called faith and it's down to individual on want they want to believe....*cough* Jatayu *cough* And Julius, this would be an example where Nietzsche could be used ("God Is Dead" - in other way he can't be a source of morals in the modern world).
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on May 9, 2008 19:50:56 GMT
I'm sure Nietzsche would appreciate being "used". Besides, who says God is dead? He wasn't alive in the usual sense in the first place. And while there are still billions of people with religious convictions, Nietzsche's philosophy will not come about (God lives on as a concept if nothing more, perhaps?). And I don't think that morals based on the goal of increased power would be a good thing for the world, seeing as I reject that suffering and joy are equal and should be treated equally. I feel that our traditional moral values are preferable (at least in the practical world, which is where we live) and so anything that furthers those is better than nihilism. Regardless of whether it can objectively be decided as such. This didn't have anything to do with our discussion at the time though Scud, so I don't know why you brought it up. Showing off perhaps? By the way, if you can't tell, I'm not a fan of Nietzsche's ideas.
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Post by Scuddles! on May 9, 2008 20:32:11 GMT
Well I'm more of a Stoic myself.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on May 9, 2008 20:46:16 GMT
A much more attractive philosophy, in my opinion.
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Matt
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Post by Matt on May 9, 2008 21:41:02 GMT
A much more attractive philosophy, in my opinion. For someone who is a Christian, I rather enjoy philosophy. Too many people's religion never gets philosophical enough in my opinion. Yes and no. Martin Luther (a rather famous chap who helped bring about the end of Roman Catholic domination of religion in the Dark age), is considered a great person, yet he once tore the Book of James out of the bible. It is okay to have unanswered questions. As far as the whole book thing goes, I do feel someone could go to heaven without having ever even heard of the Bible. So in that sense I don't think going to heaven is reliant on some book. You will find I am actually pretty reasonable about these things. I am not some bible thumper who wants to damn everybody.
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Post by Mashek on May 9, 2008 23:30:04 GMT
Blokes, I haven't even read the bible.
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Post by Scuddles! on May 10, 2008 0:01:04 GMT
I commit blasphemy pretty much on a daily basis; but as an excuse for all my lovable roguish qualities I have the trump card with the idea of "purgatory".
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on May 10, 2008 22:00:20 GMT
How would you explain this when the Bible says that no-one except baptised believers can go to Heaven? You've already said the Bible is infallible, so...?
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Post by Scuddles! on May 11, 2008 9:11:36 GMT
The unbaptized go to limbo due to the idea of "original sin" (at least in Catholic theology).
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on May 11, 2008 10:40:08 GMT
Not you, I meant matty.
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Post by Scuddles! on May 11, 2008 12:20:11 GMT
I know, and I was just saying Matty is going to limbo!
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Matt
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Post by Matt on May 12, 2008 2:30:54 GMT
How would you explain this when the Bible says that no-one except baptised believers can go to Heaven? You've already said the Bible is infallible, so...? No it doesn't. Some groups believe that, but it isn't true. Besides, the trump card against that if you are familiar with the story, is the thief on the cross who was crucified with Jesus and converted. Never had much chance of being baptized. Nowhere in the bible does it specifically say one must be baptized to be saved, it is a doctrine that is gathered through the interpretation of the bible. I would say the bible is without error but interpretation certainly isn't. Interesting point though.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on May 12, 2008 7:06:18 GMT
I will find the passage(s) that say you must be formally made a Christian, if I can. I'm certain I remember it being in there.
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Post by Mashek on May 13, 2008 6:36:05 GMT
The problem with that statement though, Julius, is that people will become a "Christian" before they even know Jesus or God. Certainly the case with many "believers" these days. Following a doctrine is only 1% of it, and even then for true believers it shouldn't be just a doctrine but a life.
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on May 13, 2008 15:28:58 GMT
Well I would say so, but many groups don't consider you a Christian until you do the formal ceremony.
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Post by Mashek on May 14, 2008 10:18:26 GMT
Pa! A bunch of misguided scoundrals! Basically, by their terms, we're looking to be considered "Christian" before all else.
Besides, what's a ceremony count for when the person undergoing it has no bloody wonder what's going on? People are "converted" these days without a say in anything. Religion can be such a travesty.
A man's better to choose for himself in time when he's hearts in it than have others choose for him immediately and get no where.
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Jatayu
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Post by Jatayu on Oct 27, 2008 17:52:19 GMT
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Post by Julius CMXCIX on Oct 27, 2008 18:14:50 GMT
I don't think they are expecting God to hand over a pot of hard cash, as such. But I can see the point in giving people perspective and prevent them from slipping in to despair. God is rather better known for dispensing inner strength and fortitude, which isn't to be scorned.
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Post by Morgoth on Oct 27, 2008 19:41:20 GMT
Yarr, self-confidence is where it's at.
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Jatayu
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Post by Jatayu on Dec 21, 2008 13:53:33 GMT
Gravity just a theory?I found this interesting parody of how stupid intelligent design is, it's funny to read.
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