Watson
Stormwind Member
Second Rate Exorcist
asdf
Posts: 1,200,000,005
|
Post by Watson on Jul 12, 2010 20:54:58 GMT
I hate scenarios which tell of King Manikin of Algaesia who tells Sir Christorian to go and rescue Princess Furiae from the evil clutches of the Dark lord Crawnor. And not to mention little sidekicks like Grimborg the elf and Gwarr the dwarf. Your opinions?
|
|
|
Post by jon. on Jul 12, 2010 20:58:22 GMT
I myself have nothing against fantasy, though cliches are to be avoided like the plague.
|
|
|
Post by Julius CMXCIX on Jul 12, 2010 21:01:11 GMT
It depends, I don't automatically change my opinion of something just because it's fantasy. But on the whole I tend to like fantasy scenarios less.
Sabato Returns: Fantasy, but not a problem Attack at Dawn: Fantasy slightly put me off, but still good Swallowed Realm: Fantasy and worse because of it
A lot of the time it depends on where it falls on the spectrum of fantasy v realism. A little bit of fantasy is fine and can even be beneficial but if you find it necessary to state a character's race and preface it with 'half', it isn't looking good.
Oracles, ghosts and supernaturally strong enemies are all fine.
|
|
|
Post by Joshua4missions on Jul 12, 2010 21:01:48 GMT
I'm not a big fan of Fantasy. It may be interesting like dragons etc... but it's so unreal. I prefer more realistic medieval games. My favorite pc games are Aok: TC, Stronghold 2, and Medieval 2 Total War.
|
|
Matt
Stormwind Member
The Come And Go Man
Monsieur Mercredi
Posts: 1,812
|
Post by Matt on Jul 12, 2010 23:31:47 GMT
Okay here goes, I might be the odd one here, but I pretty much only read speculative fiction these days. I read mostly classic or mystery literature for most of my life, then went a few years without really reading much at all of anything. When I found my interest in reading again, it was through mostly fantasy actually, a category I'd never read much in at all. I probably read at least one book a week of science fiction and fantasy these days, so I'm pretty wel versed on all the high profile fantasy literature. the problem is fantasy is a cliche ridden category, so you have to be cautious what you read. Campaigns are much the same way. I'd agree with most of your comments except the elf/dwarf thing, which looks to be somewhat of a slam on Tolkien, who I think is one of the greatest authors of all time. There is some fantastic speculative fiction being written these days by UK and USA authors. If you think fantasy is tired and cliche, read British author Joe Abercrombie's First Law Trilogy. So yes, I realize this thread was mostly meant to bang on scenarios, but I thought to maybe broaden it. A lot of people snub their nose at so called 'high fantasy' without ever actually reading it, or only reading a terrible sample. I'm always prescribing the right fantasy book for everyone I know.
|
|
|
Post by Basse on Jul 13, 2010 16:24:12 GMT
I've never been much into fantasy (except Bilbo and Harry Potter), which is a bit ironic as much of what I write would be classed as fantasy. At least I never enjoyed the kind of fantasy just ripping off Tolkien and putting it in a world with a new name (Upper Earth), or the kind where the ruby in the main character's sword has more of a personality than the character himself. Admittingly I haven't read much of it but I never got sucked into it. Matty, as the local expert I ask you, what's up with all the half-dwarf, half-man, half-elf, half-man-half-dragon stuff? Why does inter-species relations/zoophilia seem to be that commonplace in much fantasy? As for scenarios, I agree with Julius. Save for The Swallowed Realm. The fantasy theme didn't bother me much, much much less than the fact that it crashed every five minutes.
|
|
|
Post by Julius CMXCIX on Jul 13, 2010 18:58:10 GMT
Really though? I'm sure the story of LotR could have been told better with about a fifth of the words. The Hobbit was great though.
This implies that as well as awful high fantasy campaigns there are good ones. I challenge this assumption. High fantasy just doesn't work terribly well in AoK in my opinion. Having different races just means renaming berserks and longbowmen, or giving them stereotyped and unexpanded roles in dialogues. Whatever the benefits of high fantasy are (if any) they don't translate well into campaigns in my opinion.
It never crashed for me so I was able to savour the negativity of the fantasy. Rarely have I heard a worse rationale for fighting player 4 than "they are orcs!".
Also, someone should make a campaign about elves who are incompetent at archery and whose favoured unit is instead the militia. That would be fun.
I probably will, at some distant point.
|
|
Matt
Stormwind Member
The Come And Go Man
Monsieur Mercredi
Posts: 1,812
|
Post by Matt on Jul 13, 2010 19:16:30 GMT
or the kind where the ruby in the main character's sword has more of a personality than the character himself. I absolutely love this line. If I was a person who had a lot of lines in his sig (or a sig of any kind for that matter), I would sig this somewhere. Two words: video games. Games have adapted fantasy to the classic RPG class system, and rpg's like to have all these options, and generally, really really stupid storylines. Someday someone with a lick of talent will write the script to a video game and the world will be in shock. I've never really encountered this extreme in literature, though I stay away from anything that sounds terrible, so I'm possibly spared some of the worst stuff. Most of the quality fantasy literature written these days is pretty devoid of non human races. The one exception is the half elf thing, which originated with Tolkien. It goes back really to the whole theme of forbidden love, which has been around since the greeks or possibly earlier, and is seen in the works of every period, perhaps most famously Shakespeare. Taking the idea of two humans being from different classes or regions and having them love each other in spite of their circumstances is only a short stone's throw away from trying it out with two races. The most recent incarnation of this idea is the gag worthy glut of Vampire romance, led by the atrocious Stephanie Meyer and her awful twilight series. Tolkien handles it pretty well, but otherwise I'd agree it's a terrible idea. Most relationships are closer to being imperfect but convenient rather than perfect but inconvenient. But then, I'm not exactly a Romeo and Juliet fan either.
|
|
|
Post by Basse on Jul 13, 2010 19:37:25 GMT
I'd say going from two people of different social classes to two "people" of different species is quite a leap, but that thought apparently never occured to Meyer and her evil companions. Well then, now is a good time get a sig ... *takes notes*
|
|
Matt
Stormwind Member
The Come And Go Man
Monsieur Mercredi
Posts: 1,812
|
Post by Matt on Jul 13, 2010 19:38:55 GMT
Hmm, that's pretty interesting. The one complaint I've heard of LOTR is one Tolkien himself shared, that LOTR was too short. I might agree with you on the first third though. The Felllowship of the Ring feels a bit stretched at a few points. For the rest Tolkien is IMO pretty economical with his words. I actually might prefer the Silmarillion, though it certainly takes a certain type of person to enjoy that book. Chrombasia is a pretty solid campaign, I thought the Prophecy was overrated, but it was alright. Chila is just a prologue but would have to classify as fantasy certainly. There's this pretty decent scenario called Shadows after Sunset. I'd argue all those scenarios were better for their fantastic elements. Also, 'High' or 'epic' fantasy doesn't HAVE to by necessity have multiple races, though it is often the case. I agree portraying orcs in vanilla aok is not such a grand idea though. You shall not be dissapointed. He's certainly your style, caustic and cynical.
|
|
|
Post by Basse on Jul 13, 2010 19:41:26 GMT
Heh. I tried reading that one shortly after I finished Bilbo. I was 11-12 years I think. I quit after ten pages.
|
|
|
Post by Basse on Jul 13, 2010 19:45:18 GMT
Speaking of fantasy, I have an idea for a campaign I want to do sometime which is pretty much all fantasy. Except more like a parody of fantasy, and focused on humour and story as always. And it needs modding. ... Matty, think you could make the graphics for a gnome riding an ostrich?
|
|
|
Post by Julius CMXCIX on Jul 13, 2010 19:46:42 GMT
Maybe you're right then. I never got past the Fellowship of the Ring. I wasn't a big fan of Chrombasia. The Prophecy wasn't really fantasy at all, was it? Chila is only good because of the presentation (which is still stunning though) and not really because of the fantasy. Shadows After Sunset would have worked pretty much the same if you substituted in barbarians or something. As above, I wouldn't. But this is where we disagree so that's all right.
|
|
Matt
Stormwind Member
The Come And Go Man
Monsieur Mercredi
Posts: 1,812
|
Post by Matt on Jul 13, 2010 19:47:24 GMT
Speaking of fantasy, I have an idea for a campaign I want to do sometime which is pretty much all fantasy. Except more like a parody of fantasy, and focused on humour and story as always. And it needs modding. ... Matty, think you could make the graphics for a gnome riding an ostrich? When comparing the difficulty of modding that with the reward...pretty much no.
|
|
|
Post by Basse on Jul 13, 2010 19:50:33 GMT
Oh well, guess I'll have to do with a missionary instead.
|
|
|
Post by Julius CMXCIX on Jul 13, 2010 19:54:30 GMT
Making do in AoK is great.
Peasant Woman = Joan the Maid Noble = Shah Box = Relic (Cart) Fire = A field of vegetables. On fire. Noble Woman = Joan the Maid Miscellaneous Object = Relic (Cart) Mayor = Shah Beggar Woman = Joan the Maid Magician = Monk Princess = Joan the Maid Baby = Rug Middle Class Woman = Joan the Maid Elf = Longbowman (always) Dragon = Turtle Ship (you're not fooling anyone you know) Warrior Woman = Joan the Maid Dwarf = Berserk (don't question it) Elf Woman = Joan the Maid Witch = Joan the Maid (but yellow) Half-Dragon Half-Dwarf Woman = Joan the Maid
|
|
Matt
Stormwind Member
The Come And Go Man
Monsieur Mercredi
Posts: 1,812
|
Post by Matt on Jul 13, 2010 21:08:00 GMT
Making do in AoK is great. Peasant Woman = Joan the Maid Noble = Shah Box = Relic (Cart) Fire = A field of vegetables. On fire. Noble Woman = Joan the Maid Miscellaneous Object = Relic (Cart) Mayor = Shah Beggar Woman = Joan the Maid Magician = Monk Princess = Joan the Maid Baby = Rug Middle Class Woman = Joan the Maid Elf = Longbowman (always) Dragon = Turtle Ship (you're not fooling anyone you know) Warrior Woman = Joan the Maid Dwarf = Berserk (don't question it) Elf Woman = Joan the Maid Witch = Joan the Maid (but yellow) Half-Dragon Half-Dwarf Woman = Joan the Maid Imagine the scenarios we'd have if ES didn't decide to make a Joan of Arc campaign.
|
|
|
Post by Basse on Jul 13, 2010 21:54:56 GMT
All women would have to be old and ugly, male villagers and soldiers would go on strike.
|
|
Watson
Stormwind Member
Second Rate Exorcist
asdf
Posts: 1,200,000,005
|
Post by Watson on Jul 14, 2010 22:36:34 GMT
All hail Vanilla! The true path of designing!
|
|
|
Post by Mashek on Jul 16, 2010 1:20:41 GMT
While on the line of fantasy in scenarios: what are your opinions, is Blood of the Bear fantasy or not? I don't really see it as such, but others have said so. In any case, I like to stray away from fantasy nowadays and strive for realism, although if done well fantasy can be pretty fun.
|
|
|
Post by Basse on Jul 16, 2010 1:51:27 GMT
Sort of I suppose. It's in another world, and there are dragons. Or at least mentions of them. But it's a very realistic type of fantasy and the fantasy elements makes it better, as in that you'd have a harder time imagining these kingdoms existing on Earth than in a separate world.
|
|
|
Post by Julius CMXCIX on Jul 16, 2010 18:00:42 GMT
I don't consider Blood of the Bear to be fantasy at all. The only mention of dragons seems to be mythological, which is the same position dragons occupy in this world.
|
|
|
Post by Mashek on Jul 18, 2010 2:29:26 GMT
I suppose it's in the same league as Shadows after Sunset. As the author said, take away the demons and replace them with barbarians. A story that can work in fantasy or in this world. @matt I'll really have to look up that story, Matty. It seems rather interesting, especially that it draws connections from the past to the present to tell the story. @julius Exactly, it's used the same way as the lion might occupy England's parliament or coat of arms. The dragon to Erertiya is basically the kangaroo to Australia.
|
|